Shaun King Not a Fan of Gruden's ESPN QB Special

[RyanLeaf16]

I must have missed that each time. Cliff notes? Or repost it? Pls.


I alway swondered what would have happened had Gruden ended up at Notre Dame instead of Willingham and Weis. Can't decide for myself if he would have translated over the college game really well.

It was the 2003 draft and it was the last pick of the first day (last pick of 3rd round). Bucs had the pick and McKay says...

McKay: "We're going with Simms here."
Gruden: "I wanna see the work-up on him first."
McKay: "We don't have one...we didn't bother because we didn't think he'd be available this late."
Gruden: "I'm not taking a quarterback that we don't have any info on."

McKay then told Gruden that he was the GM and they were taking him. Gruden was pissed and didn't want him in the first place and certainly didn't want to just take a player that organization didn't do any work on.

From that point on it was really contentious. It was difficult during the Super Bowl year, but, because they were winning it was pushed to the side, after the 2003 draft though. Gruden was watching his back inside One Buc Place and factions formed among people inside the football ops staff. You had Gruden supporters and McKay supporters. It was pretty ugly.

 

[NAHSTE]

I was impressed with Jake Locker and Andy Dalton. Gruden really pressed on Mallett. Gruden's favorite QB prospect though isn't even in the draft. Gruden in social conversation has said that he really likes Andrew Luck.

Wow, way to go out on a limb there, Grudez.

 

[BigBucs]

What is your point? Gruden could make journeyman QBs like Rich Gannon and Brad Johnson MVP candidates...why would he also use a first round pick on a QB? Gruden's teams were always in the playoffs...when would he have the opportunity to take a Cam Newton or a Matt Stafford?

To me, its more impressive that Gruden could make any QB good. Not just a top pick.

EDIT: Why does the mug in your smilie say "I Love KOF"?

All of that shit has nothing to do with teh issue at hand which is Gruden not being able to develop young QB's. Where the few QB's were drafted means jack shit yet you were the one to point it out. Gradkowski and Simms were shit under Gruden regardless of who wanted them.

 

[FirstTimer]

All of that shit has nothing to do with teh issue at hand which is Gruden not being able to develop young QB's. Where the few QB's were drafted means jack shit yet you were the one to point it out. Gradkowski and Simms were shit under Gruden regardless of who wanted them.

Simms only good season was under Gruden.
Gradkowski's 2nd best was under Gruden but overall both those guys have been shitty regardless of who has had them. I would think the problem is that they are just shitty players...not Gruden

 

[Aso]

Part of Grudens problem with Simms is he decided to go from a run heavy offense one season to extremely pass happy the next. I believe this explains his TD:INTO ratio going from 10:7 to 1:7. And then Simms got an injury from deciding to dive across the goalline.

 

[shag773]

All of that shit has nothing to do with teh issue at hand which is Gruden not being able to develop young QB's. Where the few QB's were drafted means jack shit yet you were the one to point it out. Gradkowski and Simms were shit under Gruden regardless of who wanted them.

You'd have a point if Gradkowski or Simms had success anywhere else. They didn't. But he has had success winning with QB's that failed to develop elsewhere (Rodney Peete, Ty Detmer, Rich Gannon and Brad Johnson.)

As an Eagles fan I can tell you he is the luckiest cocksucker on the face of this earth to win that Super Bowl in my (biased) opinion, but you can't take it away from him.

On another note, everytime I see RyanLeaf16's sig I want to stick toothpicks in my eyes.

 

[RyanLeaf16]

On another note, everytime I see RyanLeaf16's sig I want to stick toothpicks in my eyes.

:smughard:

People are still leaving out Griese. Guy had a stellar year in just 10 starts. He was amazing in 2004. He had 2,600 yards passing and 20 TD's in just 10 starts and 11 games total.

 

[BigBucs]

You'd have a point if Gradkowski or Simms had success anywhere else. They didn't. But he has had success winning with QB's that failed to develop elsewhere (Rodney Peete, Ty Detmer, Rich Gannon and Brad Johnson.)

As an Eagles fan I can tell you he is the luckiest cocksucker on the face of this earth to win that Super Bowl in my (biased) opinion, but you can't take it away from him.

On another note, everytime I see RyanLeaf16's sig I want to stick toothpicks in my eyes.

Im not disputing anything anyone has to say in that regard (minus the SB win, our defense was dominant. had 0 to do with luck) but the fact of the matter is Gruden gets so much praise for being some type of offensive guru when I didnt see any of that shit, especially with the young QB's drafted under him, while he was in Tampa. It was painful to watch games when he was our coach. I always supported him simply because he was our coach but deep down inside I knew that whenever we went down by more than one possession we had pretty much no chance at winning if we had to rely heavily on the offense. The defense would do all they can for 3 quarters with no kind of help from our offense. Weak ass 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense was frustrating. Youd see a million shifts and cadences only to have a 2 yard bubble screen or drag go for next to nothing.

I have no idea why Leaf is so adamant about Grudens ass being so called shafted when our offense was absolute shit on his watch. Good riddens. Our team has made more progress in 1 year than we did in nearly a decade under Gruden.

 

[Senser81]

Im not disputing anything anyone has to say in that regard (minus the SB win, our defense was dominant. had 0 to do with luck) but the fact of the matter is Gruden gets so much praise for being some type of offensive guru when I didnt see any of that shit, especially with the young QB's drafted under him, while he was in Tampa.

Real talk here. The above is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. Forgetting the offensive records he set with Oakland and focusing entirely on his time in Tampa, lets ignore the fact that he won a Super Bowl, and lets ignore the fact that Simms and Gradkowski were at least serviceable under Gruden, and lets ignore the fact that no franchise QBs were drafted while he was there...and conclude that Gruden's tenure in Tampa was a failure because he failed to develop Chris Simms.

Lets say that Bill Belicheck's time in New England has been unremarkable because despite the 3 titles, the one near-undefeated season, the single-season scoring record, the greatness of Tom Brady....he never developed Rohan Davey to the fullest of Davey's potential.

 

[FirstTimer]

Im not disputing anything anyone has to say in that regard (minus the SB win, our defense was dominant. had 0 to do with luck) but the fact of the matter is Gruden gets so much praise for being some type of offensive guru when I didnt see any of that shit, especially with the young QB's drafted under him,

Newsflash..in case you didn't know. The young QB's drafted under him were shitty players. Gruden and coaches in general aren't magic. They can't make shitty players great. Simms and Gradkowski weren't NFL level QB's. Plain and simple.

 

[RyanLeaf16]

From 2002-2008 Gruden had 8 different starting quarterbacks in Tampa.

In 2002/2003 Brad Johnson was the starter and the passing offense was in the top half of the league both years at 15th (2002) and 6th (2003).

In 2007/2008 Gruden had Jeff Garcia as his starter the majority of the time, however due to injury Luke McCown and Brian Griese both started at times as well. During this period, the passing offense was also in the top half of the league at 16th (2007) and 11th (2008).

Now, from '04-'06 Gruden was forced to start 5 different QB's due to injury. During this time, the passing offense struggled. In 2004 they were ok ranking 14th overall (Griese started the majority of the games). In 2005/2006 they ranked 25th and 26th where Bruce Gradkowski and Chris Simms started the majority of games with a few starts from Tim Rattay.

I think it is pretty clear that when Gruden had average NFL talent at the QB position his passing offense was pretty damn efficient. Give him a top-flight QB and it is justifiable to assume he would've done a hell of a lot more with the offense. When he was plagued with injuries and inconsistency under center the passing game suffered. Still, Simms had over 2,000 yards passing and a positive (10:7) TD:INT ratio in 2005. Gradkowski had an even TD:INT ratio with over 1,600 yards passing and Rattay had ~750 yards passing in 2 starts and a 4:2 TD:INT ratio. Numbers show he did more with less than most other coaches could.

 

[shag773]

our defense was dominant. had 0 to do with luck.

Andy Reid handed you that game on a silver platter by abandoning the run in the second half, and putting that game on the shoulders of a one legged McNabb. Then you beat arguably the worst Super Team in history. You guys went 11-20 the next two years and still have yet to win a playoff game since.

You won the SB, congratulations. But you got fucking lucky. Admittedly a biased opinion, but even with my embellishment I don't think I'm that far off...

 

[BigBucs]

Real talk here. The above is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. Forgetting the offensive records he set with Oakland and focusing entirely on his time in Tampa, lets ignore the fact that he won a Super Bowl, and lets ignore the fact that Simms and Gradkowski were at least serviceable under Gruden, and lets ignore the fact that no franchise QBs were drafted while he was there...and conclude that Gruden's tenure in Tampa was a failure because he failed to develop Chris Simms.

Lets say that Bill Belicheck's time in New England has been unremarkable because despite the 3 titles, the one near-undefeated season, the single-season scoring record, the greatness of Tom Brady....he never developed Rohan Davey to the fullest of Davey's potential.

I can care less what he did in Oak. My only focus is TB, a franchise known for defense. We got this god send of an offensive coach that did jack shit for us. Im not saying his time in Tampa was a failure because he failed to develop an particular player, thats simply the issue at hand, Im saying his time was a failure as a whole because the offense remained stagnant as long as he was here.

As for the Hood he hit the lottery on Brady. Awesome job. Gruden doesnt/didnt have the foresight to do the same. Fuck him. And people give me shit for being ecstatic at having a QB like Freeman. I simply know what our offense was without him. It feels good to know that you are in every game no matter what because you have a real QB running shit.

Andy Reid handed you that game on a silver platter by abandoning the run in the second half, and putting that game on the shoulders of a one legged McNabb. Then you beat arguably the worst Super Team in history. You guys went 11-20 the next two years and still have yet to win a playoff game since.

You won the SB, congratulations. But you got fucking lucky. Admittedly a biased opinion, but even with my embellishment I don't think I'm that far off...

Whatever makes you sleep at night. Our defense was clear cut head and shoulders above everyone else. All we had to do was manage the game on offense and McNabb would throw us the game. Ronde says thanks.

Lets not forget we went on to shit on you in your 1st game in the Linc the following year. As for the rest of that shit it just proves my point about Gruden. He took Dungys team to the promise land but the offensive guru shit just wasnt the case when he was in TB.

 

[RyanLeaf16]

As for the rest of that shit it just proves my point about Gruden. He took Dungys team to the promise land but the offensive guru shit just wasnt the case when he was in TB.

Yes, he took Dungy's team to the promise land with 22 new players on the 53-man roster and the cornerstones who were drafted by Dungy's predecessor - Sam Wyche.

If anything, the most impressive accomplishment from that season was getting that group of players to buy into his way of doing things. A player on that team told me that, that is the hardest thing to do in football. Get guys to listen and respond and believe in what you are doing. He did that.

 

[shag773]

Whatever makes you sleep at night. Our defense was clear cut head and shoulders above everyone else. All we had to do was manage the game on offense and McNabb would throw us the game. Ronde says thanks.

No question you guys had a great defense that year. The only thing I am saying is we went away from what clearly worked against Tampa prior.

We ran the ball 34 times in the reguler season matchup, than only ran it 21 times in the NFC Championship. Throwing the ball 49 times against the Tampa 2 is beyond stupid.

But trust me, it hasn't helped me sleep at night chief.

Lets not forget we went on to shit on you in your 1st game in the Linc the following year.

I didn't. We had a horrible start to the year in 03. But you guys went on to get shit on for the rest of the decade.

As for the rest of that shit it just proves my point about Gruden. He took Dungys team to the promise land but the offensive guru shit just wasnt the case when he was in TB.

I don't label Gruden an offensive guru. But labeling Gruden a failure in Tampa is just flat out ridiculous. He was asked to make chicken salad out of chicken for most of his tenure there.

If anything I would point the finger at the front office for giving him next to nothing to work with.

 

[Prodigal Son]

So, is BigBucs the new BusBoy?

 

[Raidersabc123]

Chris Simms and Bruce Gradkowski... need I say more about young QBs under Gruden? Im sure RyanLeaf16 is around here somewhere to give some love though.

Bruce Gradkowski is awesome

 

[Senser81]

I can care less what he did in Oak. My only focus is TB, a franchise known for defense.

HUH????????


That somehow is even more retarded than your last post. Was Gruden a different person when he was in Oakland? Was that time erased from history? Were his accomplishments somehow 'vacated' there? Do Seahawk fans view Jerry Rice as a below-average WR because their only focus is Seattle?

AND even in my post, I allowed for ignoring Gruden's time in Oakland, making your response even MORE nonsensical.

Me: Even if we ignore Gruden's accomplishments in Oakland, he did quite well in Tampa.

BigBucs: I can care less what he did in Oak. My only focus is TB.


You are just a troll. Nothing more. Good day, sir.

 

[Scorask]

I can care less what he did in Oak. My only focus is TB, a franchise known for defense.

I thought Tampa Bay was a franchise known for losing? They had a Defense for about 7 out of 34 years.

Honestly, I don't think the Bucs make the SB that year, let alone win it, without Gruden.

 

[BrntO4Life]

"Shaun King Also Not a Fan of Throwing the Ball Well"