Sick in the head (Pain acknowledged and denied, in the NFL, NHL and in general)

[Ravin]

Makes sense in some respect. Fewer player who weren't seeing the volume of hits football players were with shitty equipment.

This is what makes this shit so dumb. Hockey does an amazing job of keeping players safe. Two people in history have had their throat cut in the NHL by a skate. Both lived. Amazing when you think of the amount of constant action, and players hitting each other that it has happened twice.

Plus with the amount of players hitting each other, you would think bones would be constantly broken, limbs out of place, and all the other stuff. But the right equipment keeps players safe.

 

[DSpydr84]

You realize if you you didn't have fighting, Gretzky probably would have got the shit beat out of him right? It is because of those enforcers that he was able to do what he did. Same goes with Yzermen on the red wings with Bob Probert. If you touch the stars you answer the the enforcer. Hockey is the only sport with contact such as hitting, and if players can run over whomever they want, you will see injuries go up even more.

NHL doesn't have the issue the NFL has with former players. Sure players are beat up after they are done playing, but most go on to normal lives, with some pain. Obviously you get the small % that has issue, but I'd say the average NHLer walks out of the league and may need to take an advil once a day.

:jonesy:

 

[FirstTimer]

This is what makes this shit so dumb. Hockey does an amazing job of keeping players safe. Two people in history have had their throat cut in the NHL by a skate. Both lived.

Actually I'm surprised this doesn't happen a lot more in the sport...Either the throat or other body parts.

At any level.

Even in the junior leagues around here I've never seen it happen with clumsy fucking kids playing.

 

[killgod]

You kind of said it though brah.

Which was my issue.

My fault then, not what I was really trying to say. I think my point is clear now.

He may have played?

Ask him.

I don't even know who said it TBH.

I respect most people here's ability to think. That doesn't mean I need to respect the opinion of I thinkit's FUBAR.

It's fubar because you disagree, not because the opinions are generally factually incorrect or stupid.

There's a difference, which makes your responses shitty.

Rational people?

We can get into MMA again, those guys put their lives on the line with every fight.

If it's irrational for a hockey player to make a living as a fighter where he could otherwise not make it as a player, then what makes it rational for someone to simply fight for a living in a ring?

What about pro wrestling? It's not even real. They act out things that cause them great bodily harm, it's not about winning and losing because it's fake.

Same could be said for the NFL etc. Obviously all sports are dangerous and risky to certain points, I thinkk the point is to take unneeded risks out of the game. IMO making the NFL into a flag football league is a MUCH more fundamental change than getting rid of fighting in hockey.One would effect each and every play and every second of every game. Fighting in hockey..not so much.

It would still effect the game. If players cannot be fought then dirtier players will be able to go after star players. Legal contact or not, enforcers are there as a reminder not to touch star players. So it's not as if the league can suspend guys for trying to legally hit stars, the league doesn't want it's star players touched for the most part.

So take away fighting and put more Crosby's at risk within the rules of the game.

 

[Ravin]

It would still effect the game. If players cannot be fought then dirtier players will be able to go after star players. Legal contact or not, enforcers are there as a reminder not to touch star players. So it's not as if the league can suspend guys for trying to legally hit stars, the league doesn't want it's star players touched for the most part.

So take away fighting and put more Crosby's at risk within the rules of the game.

This is the policing thing you guys think is stupid. But as pointed out, hockey is in constant motion with constant physical contact. The video of Clark fighting McSorley is a prime example of how to police the situation. It is telling the other team "you target our star player, you have to deal with me." And it works wonders. Gretzky had one his entire career. Bobby Orr did not and his career was cut short because players were able to do whatever the fuck they wanted to him.

Again this is a culture thing in the sport of hockey. You know going into a game what players you don't go after. And by going after I mean running the ever living fuck out of. Crosby, Gretzky and others got hit normally, but no one was lining them up looking to take their head off because they knew they would be next.

The stupid thing is, these fighters know their role, know what they are suppose to do and just go and do it. Back in the day they use to all be friends, go out for beers after a game. Hockey has a ton of honour and respect and you will not find two players who respect each other more then two guys squaring off. Watch the Probert/McSorley fight. They both stood up the entire thing, and after it was done, touched heads, and gave a little pat. It was respect.

Thing is now you have people like Sean Avery who do shit all the time and the Matt Cooke's of the league running people. This would become a huge issue if we got rid of the enforcer. They could do this shit without any worry at all. Ok, they might get suspended or fined, but the other team just lost their star player. This is what I was talking about when I said "10% concussions will go down, by 20% concussions from hitting will go up"

 

[FirstTimer]

I don't even know who said it TBH.

wr501l.

Whatever.

I think

It's fubar because you disagree, not because the opinions are generally factually incorrect or stupid.

Disagree.

Logically it makes none.

We can get into MMA again

FUBAR.

Fighting, needed to win a fight.

Fighting. Not needed to win a hockey game.

Apples and oranges.

One is the sport. Literally.

The other is a small part of it...

If I think UFC is barbaric, yes.

If it's irrational for a hockey player to make a living as a fighter where he could otherwise not make it as a player, then what makes it rational for someone to simply fight for a living in a ring?

Was never the point. Of course it's rational right now to make a living doing that since it's allowed. I never said the player was too dumb to not understand what he was doing..just perhaps the long term effects of soemthing that isn't even needed for the sport to function.

Rational people should be able to view fighting in hockey as uneccessarry and running counter the entire idea of trying to clean up the game in terms of player safety given the current framework of where the game is at now.

What about pro wrestling? It's not even real.

:whut:

They act out things that cause them great bodily harm, it's not about winning and losing because it's fake.

And I think it's stupid. It's something I enjoyed as a pre teen but if it was done away with tomorrow then I'd be fine. And again wrestling moves are absolutely needed to perform a wrestling match.

Fighting is not absotuly needed for hockey to function.

It would still effect the game.

Not to the point or extent that getting rid of pads would int he NFL. You wouldn't be changing the very fabric of the sport as it exists now the way the football example would.

Hockey exists at high levels everywhere in teh world with no fighting. Leaffan admitted much earlier it's goign extinct and I don't think any hockey fan is truly worried about he NHL ceasing to exist if it does so.

If players cannot be fought then dirtier players will be able to go after star players.

No other sport has this problem. Especially a sport like football. Where the star players many times are much more helpless from an exposure and bad position/ability to get away standpoint than in hockey.

I think it's really naive to think hockey couldn't police itself with a stronger arm in the commissioners office.

If hockey fights are about "respect" as someone in here mentioned earlier than I fail to see how players can't respect the other guys enough to not take dirty runs at them.

I can't sit here and be told that hockey fights are "respectful" then at the same time be told that hockey players aren't repsectful enough for the most part to not be disrespectful goons to other teams players. Would there be asshats like James Harrison? Sure. "There's always one" but I think legislating to the exception rather than the rule is abusrd in this case.

 

[FirstTimer]

I find this point to be salient and hadn't even thought about it in that respect.

The NFL has made it all but illegal to touch the QB it seems and they do it without on the field "enforcers".

 

[wr50l]

wr501l.

Whatever.

I think

You misrepresented what I said and I already pointed that out in my last post.

Yeah I said that. I said coaches giving rants during intermissions like we saw on 24/7 last night can spark their team. They could even do it during a timeout, but you get one timeout (sometimes we see that) and it can be used for a wide range of reasons which are more important than "instead of fighting".

Getting everyone to pay heed to words in the middle of a game is a hard sell.

 

[Ravin]

The NFL has made it all but illegal to touch the QB it seems and they do it without on the field "enforcers".

This is what I don't get. The NHL doesn't need a bunch of rules and penalties and fines to get players to leave star players alone. They police themselves, and as pointed out, the message is loud and clear to the players.

In football, how about you just throw big John on the line and tell him "go knock the fuck out of Brady". He does it, sure he may get a fine and few games, but now the Pats are out their star player, while Big John is out for a couple games, then comes back. Look at the hit on McCoy. Not sure what is going on with him, but if he is out for a massive length of time, Harrison doesn't care. He will be back after serving his time, or paying his fine and he won't change. The guy is a repeat offender and is putting guys on the shelf.

Matt Cooke was doing this and he had to change his style of play because everyone was out for him for his dirty shit. The NHL suspended him massively last season, but he knew better then anyone that he walks into Boston or New York, the target is there.

People always say "the nfl is a brotherhood". Well fuck, someone on that Browns team should have beat the fuck out of Harrison.

 

[killgod]

wr501l.

Whatever.

I think

He also fucks his goat. Just sayin.

Disagree.

Logically it makes none.

How so? What makes me saying that a speech doesn't work like a fight does?

What makes it stupid? You don't agree, but it's a valid point. Sorry, try again.

FUBAR.

Fighting, needed to win a fight.

Fighting. Not needed to win a hockey game.

Apples and oranges.

One is the sport. Literally.

The other is a small part of it...

If I think UFC is barbaric, yes.

The point has nothing to do with outcomes. These are entertainment businesses with athletes paid to specifically fight. A sport isn't watched solely for outcomes or why would anyone tune in before the last 5 minutes. Sports are watched for the entire set of entertainment they offer, and hockey happens to include a side order of fighting, which if you watch the clips posted by Ravin, the fans explode over.

Was never the point. Of course it's rational right now to make a living doing that since it's allowed. I never said the player was too dumb to not understand what he was doing..just perhaps the long term effects of soemthing that isn't even needed for the sport to function.

Rational people should be able to view fighting in hockey as uneccessarry and running counter the entire idea of trying to clean up the game in terms of player safety given the current framework of where the game is at now.

Just because a fight doesn't put goals directly in the net doesn't make it unneccssary to the game.

We can agree to disagree till the cows come home but until the league/players say otherwise, I'll side with them.

:whut:

It's entertainment where athletes (i think?) essentially injure themselves for the pleasure of the crowd. What justifies what these guys do considering how terrible they end up?

See Razor Ramon for a current example of the walking dead aka ex-pro wrestlers.

And I think it's stupid. It's something I enjoyed as a pre teen but if it was done away with tomorrow then I'd be fine. And again wrestling moves are absolutely needed to perform a wrestling match.

Fighting is not absotuly needed for hockey to function.

Still part of the entertainment package that is hockey, still effects the environment, the players and can be suggested, the end result. You can't say otherwise because it can't factually be proven either way.

Not to the point or extent that getting rid of pads would int he NFL. You wouldn't be changing the very fabric of the sport as it exists now the way the football example would.

Hockey exists at high levels everywhere in teh world with no fighting. Leaffan admitted much earlier it's goign extinct and I don't think any hockey fan is truly worried about he NHL ceasing to exist if it does so.

I disagree it's going extinct, it's simply less frequent. I wouldn't call 34% of games having fights is nearing extinction.

No other sport has this problem. Especially a sport like football. Where the star players many times are much more helpless from an exposure and bad position/ability to get away standpoint than in hockey.

I think it's really naive to think hockey couldn't police itself with a stronger arm in the commissioners office.

If hockey fights are about "respect" as someone in here mentioned earlier than I fail to see how players can't respect the other guys enough to not take dirty runs at them.

I can't sit here and be told that hockey fights are "respectful" then at the same time be told that hockey players aren't repsectful enough for the most part to not be disrespectful goons to other teams players. Would there be asshats like James Harrison? Sure. "There's always one" but I think legislating to the exception rather than the rule is abusrd in this case.

Hockey isn't football, cool?

You're saying to have a stronger arm on....LEGAL play? How the fuck do you do that?

If players are repeatedly taking legal shots on star players without any repercussion, then there's a problem, which is what would happen with the removal of enforcers.

And please, as if the NFL doesn't have dirty players. You got face stomping and dick biters in the NFL. Coaches on the sideline taking out knees. Brandon Meriweather.

Please.

Hockey fights aren't dirty but there is dirty play in the game. How is that so hard to understand? The fighters know each other and I would assume there's some kind of code when it comes to fighting in the league. Dirty athletes are in all sports, so what?

 

[FirstTimer]

This is what I don't get.

Trust me.

I know.

The NHL doesn't need a bunch of rules and penalties and fines to get players to leave star players alone. They police themselves, and as pointed out, the message is loud and clear to the players.

Ok.

But since this entire issue is about protecting teh players and reducing brain trauma the NHL's "solution" seems to run opposite of what is trying to be prevented in the first place.

Since fighting causes brain trauma...so fighting to help prevent violence against other players..that many times could and will result in brain trauma...makes no sense.

Getting it yet?

In football, how about you just throw big John on the line and tell him "go knock the fuck out of Brady". He does it, sure he may get a fine and few games, but now the Pats are out their star player, while Big John is out for a couple games, then comes back. Look at the hit on McCoy. Not sure what is going on with him, but if he is out for a massive length of time, Harrison doesn't care. He will be back after serving his time, or paying his fine and he won't change. The guy is a repeat offender and is putting guys on the shelf.

Ok? And in hockey I tell my goon to take out nother teams star player. he does. There's a fight even if my guy loses the fight horribly..that star player is still out. He doesn't miraculously become healed because of a fight.

So what exactly is your point here?

In the NFL the commisioners office prevents shit like the above from happening. In hockey players police it.

Only one results in more brain trauma during the policing action...which the league is trying to reduce.

Get it yet?

 

[FirstTimer]

He also fucks his goat. Just sayin.

:fap:

You don't agree, but it's a valid point. Sorry, try again.

because fighting can be repalced by something that doesn't cause brain trauma...which has been the point.

Does fighting pump people up? Sure. I guess. Whatever. Not the point. Other things pump players up too. They also don't cause brain injuries.

Sports are watched for the entire set of entertainment they offer, and hockey happens to include a side order of fighting, which if you watch the clips posted by Ravin, the fans explode over.

Ok.

Hockey is entertianing enough without needing fighting...that stops the action..and causes more brain trauma then the sport already does.

Those fans IMO are dumb as fuck but whatever.

It's entertainment where athletes (i think?) essentially injure themselves for the pleasure of the crowd. What justifies what these guys do considering how terrible they end up?

The moneyz?

Ok..and wrestling is needed to win or perform a wrestling match.

Fighting isn't needed for hockey to be played at a high level.

Apples and oranges.

I disagree it's going extinct, it's simply less frequent. I wouldn't call 34% of games having fights is nearing extinction.

Ok. But the frequency of fights or fighting majors are decreasing correct?

If the trend continues it will go away or become near extinct.

Would hockey be any less of a game than it is now?

No.

Hockey isn't football, cool?

You're saying to have a stronger arm on....LEGAL play?

If the play is legal deal with it.

Fuck, Lance Louis just took a fine for a horse collar a few weeks ago for taking a guy down by his jersey.

Other leagues do it.

They over legsialte the legal stuff and drop hammers on the illegal stuff to the point where players don't do it and change the way they play.


Are hockey players too dumb or too disrepectful to get this?

They are apparently respectful enough while bashing eachother in the face.

Playing clean legal hockey doesn't seem like such a huge problem then.

Sidney Crosby getting hit legally isn't an issue for me. If he's out there. Hit him. Cleanly.

If players are repeatedly taking legal shots on star players without any repercussion, then there's a problem

Disagree.

And please, as if the NFL doesn't have dirty players.

You apparently didn't read far enough.

. How is that so hard to understand?

I never said they were dirty.

I said they are unneeded and fucking stupid.

Dirty athletes are in all sports, so what?

And all sports police themselves just fine...without fighting.

What's your point again?

What do you think an offensive line is?

I'm a Bears fan.

What is this that you speak of?

 

[killgod]

because fighting can be repalced by something that doesn't cause brain trauma...which has been the point.

Does fighting pump people up? Sure. I guess. Whatever. Not the point. Other things pump players up too. They also don't cause brain injuries.

Olympic wrestling doesn't have blows to the head.
Olympic boxing has head gear.

So how about we add these to the regular circuits?

Ok.

Hockey is entertianing enough without needing fighting...that stops the action..and causes more brain trauma then the sport already does.

Those fans IMO are dumb as fuck but whatever.

To you, maybe. To all, no. Again, your opinion and nothing more.

The moneyz?

Ok..and wrestling is needed to win or perform a wrestling match.

Fighting isn't needed for hockey to be played at a high level.

Apples and oranges.

Wrestling can be done without jumping through tables off ladders. Shall we remove that?

Ok. But the frequency of fights or fighting majors are decreasing correct?

If the trend continues it will go away or become near extinct.

Would hockey be any less of a game than it is now?

No.

It increased from 2006-2009 by %150. Has decreased to the same level in 2006 in the past 2.5 seasons. Not necessarily a guarantee it's going to continue going down.

It would be a diminished product putting the top players at further risk of injury. So yes, less of a game because more star players would be in the press box, thus reducing the talent on the ice.

Wrong, try again.

If the play is legal deal with it.

Fuck, Lance Louis just took a fine for a horse collar a few weeks ago for taking a guy down by his jersey.

Other leagues do it.

They over legsialte the legal stuff and drop hammers on the illegal stuff to the point where players don't do it and change the way they play.

Deal with it how? They took away the players ability to deal with it by removing fighting. Derp?

Are they going to fine players for trying to body check stars? Really? That's your solution? It's nothing to do with ILLEGAL play, it's that star players will have a target on their back for contact because their own team can't protect them any longer.

What the hell is so hard to understand about this.

Disagree.

Explain or you got nothing.

And all sports police themselves just fine...without fighting.

What's your point again?

No other sport has ever included fighting so you can't compare since those sports can't be understood what they would be like with allowed fighting. You can't say what the NFL would be like with allowed fighting in whatever form they would want.

 

[Ravin]

Ok.

But since this entire issue is about protecting teh players and reducing brain trauma the NHL's "solution" seems to run opposite of what is trying to be prevented in the first place.

Since fighting causes brain trauma...so fighting to help prevent violence against other players..that many times could and will result in brain trauma...makes no sense.

Getting it yet?

bama:

What do you still not get by this. We have said 1000 times that if you remove fighting, players are going to have free reign to hit whoever they want all the time without anything ever happening to them. So then you are going to have more problems with head issues because players don't give a fuck anymore.

Hittng players with body checks causes head trauma. Crosby, Giroux, Staal, Skinner are all out because of BODY CHECKS or other contact. NOT FIGHTING. You keep missing this point. If you don't have fighters, then these guys are just going to have a target on their back and players are not going to give a fuck because they have no one to answer.

This isn't the NFL where we throw little flag and give them 5 yards. You get 2minutes in the box, or 5 for a major, and NO ONE wants to see periods with constant 5 minute power plays.

 

[FirstTimer]

Olympic wrestling doesn't have blows to the head.
Olympic boxing has head gear.

So how about we add these to the regular circuits?

Ok.

:kanye:

To you, maybe. To all, no. Again, your opinion and nothing more.

Woudl hockey be less entertaining to you withno fighting? If so how much? If so would you always miss it and never be able to move past it?

Wrestling can be done without jumping through tables off ladders. Shall we remove that?

The performance of certain matches could not.

:lesmug:

Wrong, try again.

I wasn't wrong.

In fact you just confirmed the opposite.

Try again.

Deal with it how? They took away the players ability to deal with it by removing fighting. Derp?

I meant as a fan...and as a player.
Deal with it as far as "sack up" and keep playing. You got hit legally. Just like AAron Rodgers and Jay Cutler get blasted legally get up and keep playing. Take your medicine and move on. They don't need some goon to hit the other QB back.

It's a clean play.

Quit being a pussy.

Hit the other guy clean..if you can. If not..Tough shit.


Derp derp derp.

Are they going to fine players for trying to body check stars?

Legally? No....hopefully.

Illegally? yes.

Don't be niave. We see the NFL over protect it's stars all the time. You think the league office of the NHL wouldn't do the same in hockey?

I think James Harrison was once fined for form tackling Drew Brees.

:jonesy:

It's nothing to do with ILLEGAL play, it's that star players will have a target on their back for contact because their own team can't protect them any longer.

I suggest the star players sack up.

Also see above. They'd be protected anyways.

Naive to think otherwise.

Explain or you got nothing.

1. The league would protect it's stars anyways.

2. I'm not worried about star players getting hit cleanly. They get hit cleanly. .... Welp, that's a clean hit. :dealwithitas explained above) and move on. Be more careful next time.

 

[Ravin]

Legally? No....hopefully.

Illegally? yes.

Don't be niave. We see the NFL over protect it's stars all the time. You think the league office of the NHL wouldn't do the same in hockey?

How are they suppose to do that when the game is in constant motion and when these things just happen. As has been pointed out YET AGAIN, the major concussions are not caused by fighting but by pure fluke

Crosby, turned the wrong way got caught, and against Krecji, just a fluke elbow.

Giroux, his own player hit him when he fell to the ice.

Skinner and Staal were hit, and it happens. How the fuck does the NHL protect these guys by removing fighting?

Answer: They dont.

How do they actually protect them?

Answer: by getting better equipment, changing rules on two line pass and icing and better boards and glass.

 

[FirstTimer]

How are they suppose to do that when the game is in constant motion and when these things just happen.

Because they have these things called "officials" that they can tell to put "emphasis" on certain "rules".

Like they do in every other sport.

The league can also "review" these things called "videos" and hand down rulings as well.

As has been pointed out YET AGAIN, the major concussions are not caused by fighting but by pure fluke

bama:

Again this just isn't about concussions. Please read link in 2nd post of thread referring to CTE.

And no one ever said fighting would end all concussions or CTE/brain trauma.

Why do you keep bringing this up? It's been addressed in here countless times.

 

[wr50l]

Why do you keep bringing this up?

Why do you keep bringing this up?

Why do you keep bringing this up?

Why do you keep bringing this up?

Why do you keep bringing this up?

:srs:

 

[sraczk2011]

Totally unnecessary, nobody enjoys that. No spark was made, the crowd remains unaffected.

They could've saved time by giving a really good speech on the bench.

 

[NAHSTE]

This thread has been utter shit for 5 pages now (40 ppp).