Stanley Cup Final: Red Wings vs Penguins Thread

[dave]

Here is my take on Malkin. My hatred for him has died down a little, because in these playoffs, he has really stepped up and played two way hockey. He has started hitting more, getting involved in the back check and started to play as a team player.

But Malkin is still a kid. This is just my opinion, but if you look at Malkin and Crosby, the difference between them mentally is that Crosby has learned fast how to change his attitude. Yes, he still whines a little, but not nearly as much as he did 3 years ago. Malkin though has an attitude that needs to be toned down. Fluery had the same issue. He was known in Jr's to get pissed off, throw shit in the locker room and just had a bad attitude when he lost and it hurt his game. Finally someone said to him "look, you will never be a superstar with your attitude" and his game changed. He calmed down, and now look at him. Probably one of the top 5 goalies in the league. Well Malkin is the same. He know's he is good. But what he needs to be told is the same as Fluery, "you need to drop the attitude and keep your head in the game, or you will never be as good as you are capable of".

I think this is why I have been so hard on Malkin, because the guy has the ability to be a pure superstar, greater then what he is. Depending what day it is, I would sometimes place him above Ovechkin. Malkin just doesn't get the attention because he plays on Crosby's team, so he will always be #2. Ovey is #1 on the Caps. But Malkin will never be as good as he can be if he doesn't drop the attitude and just focus on the game. He let's to much emotion hurt his game. It is why he doesn't back check. His defence is poor, and if you watch, a lot of it comes from he getting beat by someone, and then slowly crawling back into the play. He's pissed he got beat, and it costs his team.

Malkin IS a true superstar.
Crosby, I'm not so sure. Invisible in 3 of 5 games this series, all on the road.
Fleury is what he is - average. Nothing more, nothing less. Allows way too many soft goals to ever be considered an elite netminder.

 

[Ravin]

Malkin IS a true superstar.
Crosby, I'm not so sure. Invisible in 3 of 5 games this series, all on the road.
Fleury is what he is - average. Nothing more, nothing less. Allows way too many soft goals to ever be considered an elite netminder.

Malkin can be better then he is. First off, the guy has no supporting cast. If he was given a solid line, he would score more then he does. Not trying to down play Talbot or Fedetanko, because I like them both, but if Malkin had a play maker, he would get 130pts a season. I just don't like calling Malkin a superstar because I can still see so many area's he needs to work on. His defence being the major one. Just because you score a lot of points doesn't mean you are a superstar. Least not in my book.

Crosby is a superstar, and not just because he is "the face of the NHL". The thing is, this series, he is ALWAYS on the ice with Detroit's top line. Zetterberg is always covering him. It isn't that Crosby is "invisble" in this series, it is just, he is up against more top talent. Malkin is not. But Crosby still is probably the most talented player in the NHL right now, bar-none. And with that comes a lot of heat. Every single night you basically got to know you are going up against the best players they have. The fact he is scoring as many points as he is, going up against elite players just shows how good he actually is. And remember, he is still a young kid. I'm older then he is. I think to many people keep focusing on the "whiner" part of him. Even though he has brought it back a great deal since his first season, he is not going to shack it. He has a label on him, and even if he went 20 games without saying a word, people would still call him a whiner. But you know what, I'll take Crosby and his whiner attitude to be the first line center of my team any day of the week.

Fluery is an above average goalie. Yes, he has let in some soft one's this playoff, but every goalie does. I would still feel very confident if I had Fluery as my goalie going into the playoffs. The majority of goals scored on him are because of his team screening him. I don't care who you are, you are not saving a shot with two bodies in front of you. Fluery has the ability to win games on his own. Just need to look at the Washington and Carolina series for that. He does have some things still to work on. I cringe every time he leaves his net.

 

[dave]

But Crosby still is probably the most talented player in the NHL right now, bar-none.

Alexander Ovechkin and Malkin are both better players than Crosby. Hell, I think Zetterberg and Datsyuk may also be above Crosby.
Think about it. Zetterberg has made a difference in this series based on defensive play alone. I don't deny Crosby is a top 10 NHL player, but the finals have proved he is not top 5. The truly great players perform when it matters - Crosby hasn't.

Fluery is an above average goalie. Yes, he has let in some soft one's this playoff, but every goalie does.
At crunch time, the truly elite goalies don't give up the number of soft goals Fleury has.

See above.

 

[Ralnakor]

I do have one question. Can we all finally agree Ozzie deserves to make the Hall? The man very well could be winning his fourth cup, third as the starter.

I can't disagree that Crosby's a superstar. Do I think he's the best in the league? No. Is he Top 5? Absolutely. I'd argue Datsyuk's better (more of a two-way threat in my opinion....can score, set up goals, and there's a reason he's nominated for his potentially second straight Selke trophy) and I could go either way between Ovechkin and Crosby (depends on the night really, they both have positives and negatives on this one).

Either way, I think this has been an interesting series to watch and am looking forward to seeing the outcome of Tuesday's game.

 

[Ravin]

That is your opinion. In mine, Zetterberg and Datsyuk have a better supporting cast then Crosby has had, and he still gets more points. Not taking anything away from them (I had Datsyuk in fantasy league) but Crosby has way more talent.

 

[dave]

That is your opinion. In mine, Zetterberg and Datsyuk have a better supporting cast then Crosby has had, and he still gets more points. Not taking anything away from them (I had Datsyuk in fantasy league) but Crosby has way more talent.

I don't deny for a second Detroit has a better supporting cast.

 

[dave]

I do have one question. Can we all finally agree Ozzie deserves to make the Hall? The man very well could be winning his fourth cup, third as the starter.

Osgood IS NOT a Hall of Famer.

The Hall of Fame recognizes individual accomplishments for the most part, and Osgood has never come close to an individual award.

He is what he is - an OK goalie who's had the good fortune of playing for Detroit.

There are at least 20 better goalies in the league than Osgood right now.

This talk of Osgood being a Hall of Famer is ridiculous. Might as well give the guy at Joe Louis who gives out tickets an induction.

Under this theory, Kris Draper should also be in the HOF. Fine role player, no doubt, but not an HOFer.

 

[Ravin]

He has only ever shared the William Jennings trophy, and as Dave pointed out, he has played for Detroit of all teams. He did have winning season with the Islanders and Blues, but still didn't make a difference for those teams. He'll get into the Hall perhaps on a weak year, but not on a first ballot. He will need to find a year where the rest of the nominations are not special, and he may slide in.

 

[dave]

He has only ever shared the William Jennings trophy, and as Dave pointed out, he has played for Detroit of all teams. He did have winning season with the Islanders and Blues, but still didn't make a difference for those teams. He'll get into the Hall perhaps on a weak year, but not on a first ballot. He will need to find a year where the rest of the nominations are not special, and he may slide in.

Osgood will never make the Hall of Fame.

 

[Ralnakor]

He's still tenth overall in all-time wins if he retires after the season. I won't deny, Ravin's probably right, he'll likely squeak in, but I still think he's got the stuff to make it at some point.

I think part of the problem is in most cases, goalies are looked at as the product of the team they're on. Ozzie was as much the playoff MVP as Zetterberg in my opinion last year as the Wings wouldn't have made it out of the first round had they not put him in. Combine that with his stellar play this playoffs (I'd argue not a single goal in Game 4 was his fault, but that of the defensemen giving the Pens ample time to beat him...I'm willing to argue that one though as I figure one of ya will).

By the way, I didn't mean he was instant first ballot. I just meant I thought he deserves to eventually get in.

Sorry for that little aside, just thought I'd throw it out there....lol.

 

[dave]

He's still tenth overall in all-time wins if he retires after the season. I won't deny, Ravin's probably right, he'll likely squeak in, but I still think he's got the stuff to make it at some point.

I think part of the problem is in most cases, goalies are looked at as the product of the team they're on. Ozzie was as much the playoff MVP as Zetterberg in my opinion last year as the Wings wouldn't have made it out of the first round had they not put him in. Combine that with his stellar play this playoffs (I'd argue not a single goal in Game 4 was his fault, but that of the defensemen giving the Pens ample time to beat him...I'm willing to argue that one though as I figure one of ya will).

By the way, I didn't mean he was instant first ballot. I just meant I thought he deserves to eventually get in.

Sorry for that little aside, just thought I'd throw it out there....lol.

The regular season also means something when the HOF is counted ... which means Osgood has no chance.

 

[nesper]

not much to say since most of it has already been said. Pavel back was huge. This is a team that was playing its 5th game in 8 days, is an old team, missed datsyuk for the first 4 games and is now on the brink of winning the cup. They had all the excuses lined up for failure and now there is none. They got 2 days off now a far cry from the 1 day between each of 2-3-4-5. I think they have a legit shot of winning it in pittsburgh for the 2nd straight year. I hope they do because i got the night off and can go downtown and watch it. BUT (capslock for emphasis) they are going to pittsburgh to play a team that just got its teeth kicked in.

As far as the penalty situation goes I think most of us can agree if it was not a 5-0 game the 2 slashes do not get called. if one of them would have it would have been the crosby one. Those were pure and simple control calls. Keepig the emotions in check as much as possible so nobody does anythign stupid.

 

[wr50l]

Playoffs this season

Malkin 14 goals, 21 assists, 35 points, +2,
77/164 face offs, 47%
Crosby 15 goals, 16 assists, 31 points, +10
271/507 face offs 53%

Career Stanley Cup Final games vs Detroit

Malkin 3 goals, 7, assists, 10 points, -3
Crosby 3 goals, 6 assists, 9 points, -1

I'm also going to harp back to my post several pages back about the Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin debate in an attempt to put this "Crosby isn't top three" calamity of an argument to bed.

The "best" of the three is simply the one who has the most confidence and is getting the lucky breaks at any particular time.

It is complete and utter bullshit for someone to suggest that Crosby is not at the top level because of a few average games. Malkin is the hot hand right now and he deserves all the plaudits, but Crosby is well and truly capable of putting the Cup winning goal in the twine.

The stats clearly show that Crosby is not some Joe Thornton morph who isn't cut out for elimination hockey so that's another ridiculous sentiment Dave.

The remarkable thing to me about Crosby is that if he gets a little space coming into the neutral zone the Penguins are guaranteed a scoring chance. He is unmatched in getting a nice spot on the ice and waiting patiently for the moment to pass. This has been demonstrated many times this season with Bill Guerin being on the end of some amazing passes for simple tap in goals. I can recall two instances in the Finals alone this season where Crosby has slid the puck through on a two on one and the pass recipient has failed to bury the puck.

 

[Ravin]

How can you make your argument based on supporting cast, when Ovechkin has 1/4 the supporting cast as Crosby or Malkin or Datsyuk?

.....

what?

 

[dave]

Grant Fuhr says hi.

Grant Fuhr was a great goalie, regular season be damned.
You can't put Osgood in the same conversation as Fuhr.

 

[nesper]

osgood is hall of fame, no doubt awesome stanley cup finals record, gonna win the conn smythe this year, his 4th cup 3 of which he was the goaltender of record. top 10 wins all time. supporting cast be damned he is a hall of famer

 

[Ravin]

osgood is hall of fame, no doubt awesome stanley cup finals record, gonna win the conn smythe this year, his 4th cup 3 of which he was the goaltender of record. top 10 wins all time. supporting cast be damned he is a hall of famer

Not supporting cast be damned. He wouldn't have had those rings if he wasn't on the Wings period. Osgood is not single handedly winning games on his own, but rather is just part of a system that works. There is a reason why Osgood was a backup goalie and whored around to the Islanders and Blues, because he wasn't that good. He just now fits into what Detroit needs.

I don't know, he just doesn't seem like HOF material, and the only reason he will get in is because he won so many Cups with a powerful Red Wings team.

 

[Tailback U]

Crosby is elite, top 3 in the NHL no doubt about it. It's funny how a guy dominates for 3 series and everyone is in awe of him but then goes quiet for a few games and everyone starts bashing him.

That said, Crosby needs to up his aggressiveness and play with a bit of a chip on his shoulder. I know that's not his MO, but he needs to show some emotion out there. Malkin has upped that part of his game, it's time for Crosby to do the same.

Osgood deserves to be remembered forever. Everyone knows he wouldn't have his name on the Cup 3 times (possibly 4 now) if he wasn't on the Wings, but the fact is that he is. The "if" game cannot be played when it comes to goaltending. He's obviously not one of the best goaltenders of all time, but he is worth remembering for his playoff performances and what he has done for Detroit. He has stepped up when it matters most.

Detroit is just a machine. They are so good all around. They are like the Patriots of the NHL. Seems like they can just throw anybody in there and get results (Helm, Abdelkadar, Ericcson, etc., etc.).

The Penguins are great, but I think Crosby and Malkin are still just a little too young to realize what it takes to win 4 rounds of playoff hockey. Not to mention Detroit is the best team in hockey, so you can't fault them.

That said, I think it's only a matter of seasons before these two put together a string of Stanley Cup championships.

 

[Ravin]

Omar just touched on it, and it is the single thing that makes me excited about the state of hockey and how it is going. Crosby, Malkin, Ovey are all 22 or under, and they have not yet reached their full ability as hockey players. When they do, it is going to be an insane explosion of goals. The NHL doesn't need to change the net sizes or goalie pads, they just need to wait till the league catches up to what Malkin, Crosby and Ovey are able to do.

 

[killgod]

.....

what?

Semin, Backstrom, Fedorov, Green......bunch of fuckin bums.


p.s. Osgood is a lil underrated. He might be a part of one of the best franchise dynasties in NHL history, with great talent in front of him, but it's not like he's not making the big saves.

The guys shooting the pucks at him aren't no run of the mill players either.

His career GAA is 2.47. That's top 20 ALL TIME. 1.55GAA in their Cup run last year. Fucking RIDICULOUS.

I don't think you could simply plug in any other stiff and get the same results. He posted two quality seasons outside of wearing Red and White, so it's not all Lidstrom and Co.



p.s.s I'm not even touching on the Crosby debate. Some people are just fucking retarded.