Tim Tebow sucking it up

[Sven Draconian]

I get it! I'm wrong, and YOU are right! Thats why every top QB draft pick experiences immediate success in the NFL, and thats why every QB in the NFL is a superb athlete who runs a 4.4 forty....because reading defenses is a mere rote exercise. Like you said, its as simple as looking at the defense then passing to the open receiver. The only person who couldn't play QB in the NFL is Stevie Wonder.

Ability to learn how to, and desire to learn how to, are different things.

 

[Senser81]

What is your obsession with terrible comparisons?

Here is another comparison, since I have no idea what you are actually "arguing". You are the guy who, despite all factual evidence indicating the opposite, argues that the dinosaurs were never killed off because I can't produce residue of the comet that killed them.

Besides a couple of things, such as....
I'm not the one spouting off about how reading coverages change (if it does, how. Just tell me how it changes. If it's different enough that you, a fan, knows the difference, it should certaninly be easy to explain).

JESUS FUCK!! NEITHER AM I! What are you talking about?? FOR THE THIRD TIME, what do you mean when you say the "mechanics of reading"? In batting, does everyone have the same strikeout-to-walk ratio because the "mechanics of hitting" are the same for everyone?

Do you have a brain???

 

[Sven Draconian]

Here is another comparison, since I have no idea what you are actually "arguing". You are the guy who, despite all factual evidence indicating the opposite, argues that the dinosaurs were never killed off because I can't produce residue of the comet that killed them.



JESUS FUCK!! NEITHER AM I! What are you talking about?? FOR THE THIRD TIME, what do you mean when you say the "mechanics of reading"? In batting, does everyone have the same strikeout-to-walk ratio because the "mechanics of hitting" are the same for everyone?

Do you have a brain???

Again
Mechanics of reading:
I've already told you how reading them is the same. You find the shell (MOFO/MOFC), find any overhang, identify his position. Identify zone vs man. Identify press vs loose. Set the protection (this is new for most rookies). Which step is different in the NFL?


You said reading in the NFL is different than in college. How.

 

[Senser81]

and...

I already have (a few posts up).

I've already told you how reading them is the same. You find the shell (MOFO/MOFC), find any overhang, identify his position. Identify zone vs man. Identify press vs loose. Set the protection (this is new for most rookies). Which step is different in the NFL?

LMAO! This has nothing to do with a mechanical process. You are just spouting off some 'coachspeak' in a lame attempt to sound intelligent. I'm surprised you didn't add "...and in Madden, send a guy in motion and see if a defender follows him..."

"Identify zone vs. man"....Gee, ya think?? Thanks for the heads-up! You should be a quarterbacks coach in the NFL!!!

 

[Sven Draconian]

LMAO! This has nothing to do with a mechanical process. You are just spouting off some 'coachspeak' in a lame attempt to sound intelligent. I'm surprised you didn't add "...and in Madden, send a guy in motion and see if a defender follows him..."

"Identify zone vs. man"....Gee, ya think?? Thanks for the heads-up! You should be a quarterbacks coach in the NFL!!!

So I'll assume this means you don't know a difference.

Troll tactics 101: If you can't attack the arguement, attack the speaker.

 

[Rayman]

It depresses me to know Buffalo will need a QB this year. I'm almost hoping they don't and decide to tank it this year in hopes of a better QB class next year

I think this class is head and shoulders better than last years.

Draft a guy and let him develop without throwing him into the fire. This system works, why shouldn't Buffalo do it?

 

[Senser81]

So I'll assume this means you don't know a difference.

Troll tactics 101: If you can't attack the arguement, attack the speaker.

Thanks for the follow-up explanation. The "mechanics of running" are get ball, break tackles, score points. Anyone can be a RB in the NFL...but the ability to learn how to, and desire to learn how to, are different things.

 

[Sven Draconian]

Thanks for the follow-up explanation. The "mechanics of running" are get ball, break tackles, score points. Anyone can be a RB in the NFL...but the ability to learn how to, and desire to learn how to, are different things.

Physical skills and mental skills are different.

 

[Senser81]

You said reading in the NFL is different than in college. How.

Lets take a look at Mark Sanchez. His rookie year passing numbers were putrid when compared to his last season at USC. The drop-off in efficiency wasn’t unexpected (perhaps except for you)…but the question is “why”?

So I am putting forth the revolutionary and highly-controversial idea that NFL defenses are different than college defenses!!!

Schedule: In the NFL, there aren’t really any “easy” games. Every team, even the Browns, are competent. Mark Sanchez doesn’t get any San Jose States. Even the mediocre colleges like Washington State, where Sanchez just throws the ball to the WR with the white CB on him, are in no way comparable to the worst NFL defense. In college, you face a tough defense maybe 3 times a season. In the NFL, every defense is tough.

Pass rush: This is somewhat related to schedule. A QB in college has way more time to make decisions and read defenses when compared to the NFL. In the NFL, every team has multiple players on defense who can rush the QB. In college, its possible that a team has no one who can really put pressure on the QB. So, more time to make decisions means its much easier to read a college defense than an NFL defense.

Pass coverage: colleges just don’t have the athletes who can cover WRs man to man. The offenses in college hold the upper-hand. If you don’t agree, just take a look at some of the collegiate passing stats. I think Kellen Moore had like 45 TDs and only 4 INTs. The coverage in the NFL is much tighter than in college. As I said before, in college a QB can find a WR who is open and throw him the ball. In the NFL, if you wait for your WR to get open before throwing him the ball, its likely that the WR will have 3 DBs on him by the time the ball arrives. In the NFL, a QB has to read the defense and anticipate which WR will be getting open, and then throw the ball before the WR is open. THIS IS MUCH DIFFERENT THAN COLLEGE. An NFL QB has to recognize the defense quicker and have a quicker release than in college.

Schemes: Hal Mumme developed one of the most dynamic offensive schemes in college football history with his “Air Raid” offense at Kentucky. Similar to me calling “WR Under” in Madden for 15 consecutive plays, the Air Raid offense consisted of Tim Couch, Jared Lorenzen, etc. using the same 3 pass plays over and over and over. It simplified reading the defense to the most elementary level. This works in college because the defenses just aren’t up to task. They don’t have the athletes, they don’t have the practice time, etc. But do you think the Air Raid would work in the NFL? Not a chance. You have professional players and coaches who can dissect and exploit every nuance of an offense. NFL teams put in new defenses, new blitzes, new coverages, etc. ‘en masse’ every week. A QB in the NFL has to be able to recognize a multitude of new defenses every game. There is more variety in the blitzes. There is more variety in the man/zone combinations.

Athletes: Forgetting the ‘strategy’ aspect of it, just the athletes that play defense in the NFL make the field smaller and give the QB less areas to exploit...thus making it more difficult to read the defense and identify the weakness. The 2000 Ravens had one of the greatest defenses of all-time, and they rarely blitzed or did anything exotic. They basically dropped 3 LBers into short zones, and no NFL QB could get the ball over them or around them (so…it was like playing NCAA 2006). The defenders in the NFL don’t regularly botch assignments, they don’t regularly get beaten by 10 yards, the LBers don’t bite on every play fake. It’s a different game. An NFL QB has to read the defense differently...he has to be able to see things in minute detail, because the cracks in the defense are more difficult to recognize.

I could go on and on, but I don’t think I have to. The statistics speak for themselves.

 

[NAHSTE]

Back to the Tebow talk, I watched NFL Live last night (don't ask me why) and was disgusted and how uninformed and stupid you can be and still have a job on TV. Paraphrasing, this is how it went:

Wingo: Hasselbeck, will Tebow be a good NFL prospect?
Hasselbeck: I think he'll be a great NFL prospect. You just have to have a team that sees how he fits in as a football player in the National Football League (That's right, he literally took up 15 seconds of air time saying that Tebow is a football player, trying to play in the National Football League. Glad he's here)
Woodson (channeling Mr. Bill with the friend of a friend reference): Yeah me too, I talked to his coach in high school, former Cowboy Bill Bates. He says Tebow is a guy with "MENTAL TOUGHNESS", one of those first one there, last to arrive guys....(goes on to spout cliches about Tebow's leadership, blah blah blah for 20 seconds)

Now, maybe they don't watch much college football, or maybe they're just spouting the company line, but we already have heard about Tebow's MENTAL TOUGHNESS and his "First to arrive, last to leave" work ethic. Those aren't question marks for Timmy, so why keep harping on them? Mental toughness and LASTONETOLEAVEABILITY do not make you a good QB, so stop sugarcoating it and say he sucks already.....But hold on, it gets worse, Tim Hasselbeck then drops this gem:

"I'm not so much worried about his throwing ability as a QB, as much as I'm concerned about his speed. I'm interested to see him run and see how his speed holds up. You see, in college he was a power runner, and that worked, but I want to see how his speed translates to the next level, that could go into how well he'll be, not just as a QB, but as a football player."

It's official, Tim Hasselbeck is the worst "analyst" on TV right now. In 3 minutes of air-time, he told us this:
- Tebow is a football player, who needs to find where he fits in the National Football League.
- Tebow might not be a good QB, not because he can't throw, but because he's got questionable speed.

Maybe he should go back to the View fulltime.

 

[Sportsbuck]

There are a lot of NCAA teams that disguise coverages without showing until snap. Penn State is one (I have a packet from Ron Vanderlinden). USC is big on it (more on them later). Greg Robinson does it a ton (Michigan). TCU is another. Va Tech is one of the best. Those are just places I have literature on.

I realize that, but its easier to disguise coverages in the NFL simply because of the hash marks being close together.

Just as an example (since I was looking over USC stuff earlier). Carrol's base coverage is Cover 1, spinning a safety down to cover the snap. They base out of the 4-3 (under front) with 2 high safeties, but usually spin one down at the snap based on backfield flow. There's good stuff over at trojanfootballanalysis.com

Buckeyefootballanalysis.com as well... they are who I usually take a gander at.

The NFL does have more window dressing and a wider variety of blitzes. No disputing that. But the process of reading remains the same, there's just more junk to sort through.

There's only so many coverages you can play, and only so many route combinations you can throw together. An NFL team is going to have a larger amount of material, but that doesn't change the basis of the material.

I agree with you here Sven.

 

[Tailback U]

Yeah, if there's one thing I want from my fullback it's for him to be the first one in the film room and last one out. Tebow is going to be one helluva special teams player.

 

[Senser81]

You need to get LIFE.

Fixed.

 

[NAHSTE]

You need to get NFLN.

Watching it right now, Mayock just compared Dexter McCluster to Percy Harvin in a "EXPLOSION and PROPULSION sense". (the NFL, where propellers happen!)

So yeah, I think they're all equally horrible.

 

[ralaw]

Watching it right now, Mayock just compared Dexter McCluster to Percy Harvin in a "EXPLOSION and PROPULSION sense". (the NFL, where propellers happen!)

So yeah, I think they're all equally horrible.

Yeah, these “draft gurus” have to have the easiest jobs in America, because all they have to do is watch some games/tapes, read other draft reviews, form an opinion and pass it off as the gospel. There is really no way to rank their effectiveness, because it’s all just a crapshoot and their defense is the guy was a bust.

 

[Sportsbuck]

So apparently Tebow got an 890 on his SAT... now I know athletes are the brightest kids in most cases, but Tebow is hyped up for his academics. Thats a terrible score. An 890? (Its on the 2 part test... doesn't include writing to the best of my knowledge) It's an average of around the 30 percentile.

 

[Senser81]

So apparently Tebow got an 890 on his SAT... now I know athletes are the brightest kids in most cases, but Tebow is hyped up for his academics. Thats a terrible score. An 890? (Its on the 2 part test... doesn't include writing to the best of my knowledge) It's an average of around the 30 percentile.

Hyped up for academics...at University of Florida!

Not to single out Tebow because this type of bullshit is all-encompassing, but I get irritated when the media tries to portray these people as genuine student-athletes. Its great that someone like Tebow can do well in school...but he's not discovering String Theory. "Johnny Linebacker is a model student at Florida State University with a 3.2 GPA while majoring in YMCA Round-Robin Tournament Management".

 

[Sven Draconian]

Lets take a look at Mark Sanchez. His rookie year passing numbers were putrid when compared to his last season at USC. The drop-off in efficiency wasn’t unexpected (perhaps except for you)…but the question is “why”?

Actually, my question was "How", but you careful dodged my question.

So I am putting forth the revolutionary and highly-controversial idea that NFL defenses are different than college defenses!!!

Schedule: In the NFL, there aren’t really any “easy” games. Every team, even the Browns, are competent. Mark Sanchez doesn’t get any San Jose States. Even the mediocre colleges like Washington State, where Sanchez just throws the ball to the WR with the white CB on him, are in no way comparable to the worst NFL defense. In college, you face a tough defense maybe 3 times a season. In the NFL, every defense is tough.

Ok, irrelevant to the discussion. Nobody said college and pro football are the same. All I said was reading a coverage is the same.

Pass rush: This is somewhat related to schedule. A QB in college has way more time to make decisions and read defenses when compared to the NFL. In the NFL, every team has multiple players on defense who can rush the QB. In college, its possible that a team has no one who can really put pressure on the QB. So, more time to make decisions means its much easier to read a college defense than an NFL defense.

This is true to an extent. Except, of course, that Pro OL are also better than college lineman. I'll agree that the pass rush is tougher in the NFL.

Pass coverage: colleges just don’t have the athletes who can cover WRs man to man.

You just made that up. There are plenty of college teams that play man to man coverage. I won't dispute there is a wider talent range, but the idea that no college teams play man is ridiculous.

The offenses in college hold the upper-hand. If you don’t agree, just take a look at some of the collegiate passing stats. I think Kellen Moore had like 45 TDs and only 4 int.

And the offense in the NFL also holds the upper hand (thank you illegal contact).

The coverage in the NFL is much tighter than in college. As I said before, in college a QB can find a WR who is open and throw him the ball. In the NFL, if you wait for your WR to get open before throwing him the ball, its likely that the WR will have 3 DBs on him by the time the ball arrives. In the NFL, a QB has to read the defense and anticipate which WR will be getting open, and then throw the ball before the WR is open. THIS IS MUCH DIFFERENT THAN COLLEGE. An NFL QB has to recognize the defense quicker and have a quicker release than in college.

I'll file this under "Things Senser made up".

While it is absolutely true that there is tigheter coverage in the NFL (better athletes), you don't even have a basic understanding of how a passing attack operates. Nobody, Nobody, NOBODY just looks for an open recevier. The fact you have said this, mutliple times, proves you are simply talking out of your ass.

All passing attacks (D1a-NFL) base on manipulating defenders by putting two receivers in the same spot, thus creating a conflict (they can only cover 1 of them). Reading a coverage is identifying the coverage shell, getting into the correct route combination, and reading the conflicted-defender. This happens faster in the NFL, and there are a wider variety of combinations to choose from, but the basic premise is the same.

Schemes: Hal Mumme developed one of the most dynamic offensive schemes in college football history with his “Air Raid” offense at Kentucky. Similar to me calling “WR Under” in Madden for 15 consecutive plays, the Air Raid offense consisted of Tim Couch, Jared Lorenzen, etc. using the same 3 pass plays over and over and over. It simplified reading the defense to the most elementary level. This works in college because the defenses just aren’t up to task. They don’t have the athletes, they don’t have the practice time, etc. But do you think the Air Raid would work in the NFL? Not a chance. You have professional players and coaches who can dissect and exploit every nuance of an offense. NFL teams put in new defenses, new blitzes, new coverages, etc. ‘en masse’ every week. A QB in the NFL has to be able to recognize a multitude of new defenses every game. There is more variety in the blitzes. There is more variety in the man/zone combinations.

Except, of course, that a ton of coaches have worked at both levels...and regularly bounce between them. I suppose your theory then is that when they are professional coaches they dissect and exploit every nuance of an offense...but when they are working in college they don't bother with that stuff.

I'm sure that's it.

Oh, and the staple plays of the Air Raid are all over the NFL. Martz is running Air Raid stuff, and Wes Welker makes a living running the "Sticks" route. Mesh is a HUGE play in the NFL as well.

Athletes: Forgetting the ‘strategy’ aspect of it, just the athletes that play defense in the NFL make the field smaller and give the QB less areas to exploit...thus making it more difficult to read the defense and identify the weakness. The 2000 Ravens had one of the greatest defenses of all-time, and they rarely blitzed or did anything exotic. They basically dropped 3 LBers into short zones, and no NFL QB could get the ball over them or around them (so…it was like playing NCAA 2006). The defenders in the NFL don’t regularly botch assignments, they don’t regularly get beaten by 10 yards, the LBers don’t bite on every play fake. It’s a different game. An NFL QB has to read the defense differently...he has to be able to see things in minute detail, because the cracks in the defense are more difficult to recognize.

The field being effectively smarter is a difference, and the smaller window is a big factor (thus, Timmy's release concerns...and all the obsession over arm strength). But, again, reading a route combination does not change.

I could go on and on, but I don’t think I have to. The statistics speak for themselves.

No, statistics have yet to prove how reading a defense is any different. Nobody is arguing the NFL plays better defense than the college game.

 

[Senser81]

Sven, you were 'en fuego' for awhile this morning, then you took like a 4 hour "siesta". WTF happened?:date:

 

[Sven Draconian]

Sven, you were 'en fuego' for awhile this morning, then you took like a 4 hour "siesta". WTF happened?:date:

Had to go to watch the weight room