UFC 99 Thread (Spoilers)

[Liquidrob]

Right now the best strikers MMA has ever seen first be the guys with legit Striking backgrounds like the ex K1 guys like Semmy, Cro Cop, Manhoef, Hunt, than guys like Bas and Yvel who just wreck people

The dutch style is great for MMA, just power based and everything they throw hurts

Than you have the guys with a lot of training in striking growing up and did compete at different levels like Anderson Silva and Machida and they are still refining there game and taking out less skilled strikers and making them look silly

The grapplers like Penn, Couture, etc...have all gotten so much better, but they just dont have the background and competiton level of K1 guys, etc...

Rampage, AA just are raw talents and have learned so much, still have a lot of holes, but have shown great technique

The new Breed like Mousasi and Jose Aldo, they are the future it seems, just nasty on the feet and on the ground, just enjoy watching these guys grow

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Anyways I think this UFC once again highlighted the serious flaws in MMA judging. The 10 point must , and the overvalued "take down" decided fights.
I think John Mccarthy had it right when he said some of the refs just aren't qualified ((I think this UFC in particular they were working noob judged in)).
I think Bas Rutten had it right when he said take downs that don't result in any damage or are immediately nullified shouldn't be weighed much if at all. Eliminating 10 point must and adding half points would also give judges more flexibility and give close rounds less important over more dominant ones.

10-9 for razor thin, super close rounds.

10-8 for rounds where one fighter clearly won the round.

10-7 for a dominant round, where it's a miracle the guy wasn't finished. (current 10-8 criteria).

This way, if you have two SUPER CLOSE rounds, and one round where one guy clearly dominates, the guy who won the dominate round CAN NOT LOSE. Because he shouldn't.

 

[Liquidrob]

Anyways I think this UFC once again highlighted the serious flaws in MMA judging. The 10 point must , and the overvalued "take down" decided fights.
I think John Mccarthy had it right when he said some of the refs just aren't qualified ((I think this UFC in particular they were working noob judged in)).
I think Bas Rutten had it right when he said take downs that don't result in any damage or are immediately nullified shouldn't be weighed much if at all. Eliminating 10 point must and adding half points would also give judges more flexibility and give close rounds less important over more dominant ones.

yeah, judging is awful, guys shooting takedowns in the last 30 seconds can win rounds, etc...

there needs to be more draws, people hate them, but they are needed

also yellow cards would be nice

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

MMA is still a young sport, there are so many areas to be skilled in that its hard to find great technique everywhere, the sport is very much a jack of all trades sport at this point, with guys having there base and than trying to improve all the other areas

Striking is probably the hardest to master, there are elite level wrestlers, grapplers, sub guys, etc...but striking is still the newest part to the sport, at least at a high level

You won’t have pro boxer hands when you can’t train on boxing all day every day, a boxer or kick boxer won’t get to Olympic or division I level wrestling because you can’t do it everyday

There just isn’t enough time in the training day to be the best in all ranges; you just have to be competent in all the ranges to compete now a days.

Cro Cop was a high level kick boxer, he learned how to stop takedowns, learned to not get subbed, but will never be a ADCC type of grappler, or Mark Coleman in the takedown department, he was technically good enough to compete in K1 and was the most feared HW striker in MMA for many years

The sport by nature is an eclectic sport, we pull from kick boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, K1, Thai, Karate, etc…it will take many many years to see the type of skill level you want to see from all the fighters

I am waiting for legit boxers to make the transition at an early age, just like when the K1 guys were coming in, it upped everyone’s game in the striking department, we need more of that, right now wrestlers who work on there kick boxing for 6 months think they are kick boxers and when 2 of them meet it and just want to strike it is C level kick boxing and I don’t really enjoy watching that

I agree.

I do think the nature of boxing and the fact that most trainers arent qualified to teach cross style is hindering alot of guys.
You cant learn/teach boxing in the traditional sense and ever expect to to translate to MMA. The stance , the defense , some of the combination are just completely counter productive in MMA. But I do think in knowing that many guys dont concentrate on it enough and think they can get by with what essentially is just one combo with fast or heavy hands.

I also think we're seeing alot of cookie cutter training/fighting . I love that guys from different disciplines ((Judo/Karate)) have had success.I think the more the mold is broken the likely hood of seeing a truly dominant fighter not named Fedor increases.

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

I think Vitor Belfort is one of the best strikers in MMA.. Wandy agrees.

<div><object width="420" height="339"><param name="movie" value="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x6iqxr" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><embed src="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x6iqxr" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="339" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always"></embed></object><br /><b><a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x6iqxr">Victor Belfort vs Wanderlei Silva 1998</a></b><br /><i>by <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/LaNINJAA">LaNINJAA</a></i></div>

 

[Liquidrob]

Vitor is the man, I forgot him, he should be on the list, his issues are always mental, never question about technique

Old Vitor and New Old Vitor are beasts

 

[Liquidrob]

Also, for got to add Malaipet, great Thai Boxer, I wish more Thai's would make the switch, but I think there lack of footwork really hurts them and they cant get the takedown defense down because of it

Mushin Corbbrey is also very skilled striker, I like his game, has the total package of striking, footwork, defense, etc...

If you watch more of the lighter weights you will see some high skill level in the striking department

 

[Liquidrob]

I agree.

I do think the nature of boxing and the fact that most trainers arent qualified to teach cross style is hindering alot of guys.
You cant learn/teach boxing in the traditional sense and ever expect to to translate to MMA. The stance , the defense , some of the combination are just completely counter productive in MMA. But I do think in knowing that many guys dont concentrate on it enough and think they can get by with what essentially is just one combo with fast or heavy hands.

I also think we're seeing alot of cookie cutter training/fighting . I love that guys from different disciplines ((Judo/Karate)) have had success.I think the more the mold is broken the likely hood of seeing a truly dominant fighter not named Fedor increases.

yeap, even guys like Freddie Roach, he knows his boxing of course, but half the stuff he teaches just wont translate and I think the boxing instructors ego just wont see it

watch PBF fight, his defense is tailor made to get taken down, his hands and covering up will get you on your back quick, Winky Wright, when he covers up with both arms in front, with boxing gloves it works, with little gloves the punches go right thru it, so you have to pick and choose what you want to learn and train for and understand you are still fighting in MMA and not a boxing match

people also forget MMA is a 3 round fight for the most part, people always get the idea that a boxer has this amazing 1 punch power (which some have), but they are not training for 1st or 2nd round KO's, they are training to wear you down, build up damage, out point you, etc...its a different game altogether

I think out of the boxing turned guys, Rampage has done a great job of it, but he still has dropped some of the stuff that worked well for him in the past like his clinch game and knees, like I said before, there just isnt enough time in the day to work it all

Randy would be a great role model for this, he boxes just enough to hurt you and get you thinking about it, but never forgot his roots and greco background which made him great

I think the dutch style of kick boxing is great for MMA at this point, Bas, Yvel, Oveerem, etc..it is pretty much power based, a lot of straight punches, etc...but you still need the sprawl game, takedown defense to make it work

 

[Steel Mamba]

lol, those guys dont fit your requirements you used for cro cop, but cro cop isnt elite and those guys are?

This is what you said



AA has defense? He gets hit flush all the time, thats his biggest issue

Sherk? He has nice combos but has never beat anyone on his feet, pretty on the pads

BJ never threw a kick in his life, he has shown some flashes with his hands, but is more of a brawler and likes to scrap

Faber has really bad boxing technique

Diaz gets hit way to much, wheres the defense you are asking for?

Randy, sort of, 1 fight against chuck and than chuck with his 'no technique' KO's him clean twice, Randy doesnt have much power, but I like Randys style

Machida doesnt have good boxing technique, he proabbaly has the best tactical stand up going, but technique wise not really, Silva is all flash right now, dancing against Cote and Thales doesnt cut it, he probably is the most accurate though, when he has tried to kickbox and box he hasnt done that well

I could go on, but its early, you take away for cro cop's boxing, but dont count his kicks, his defense is as good as almost anyone on this list, plus Cro Cop has done more and out struck better fighters than any of these guys easily

You are again, like with Fedor, holding Cro Cop to a higher standard and basing these fighters on style over substance again

If those guys are 'elite' you cant tell me that Cro Cop was not, he has a better kicking game than everyone there and had a powerful straight left, he mostly got caught by grapplers and was looking for the shot, you dont think he has footwork? when he had his sprwal going and moving around the ring, his footwork was on point

I'm just trying to figure out that if his entire standup game is elite then why isn't he winning anymore? Still has the same speed and other aspects of his game seem to have gotten better, so why can't he stand and bang with the best of them anymore?

Footwork, he's quick on his feet for his size, but his footwork isn't exactly amazing either.
Look at this fight for example

[media]http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/Mirko+Cro+Cop/video/x1la0p_mirko-cro-cop-vs-aleksander-emelian_sport[/media]

Running straight towards the power of Aleks, a better striker would have just cut off the ring instead of chasing Cro Cop and caught him flush with the way he's moving there.

I might be nit picking a bit, Cro Cop was a beast back in the day, but those guys I listed have less holes in their game than Cro Cop does. They might not have the physical attributes, but they're more technically sound. Also, I understand Diaz has his flaws, which is why I pointed oout that only a few aspects of his game puts him on that list for me. Mainly his work rate, combinations, and variety of punches that he throws, in those categories he's elite.

 

[Steel Mamba]

they'll just knock you the fuck out. Good list.

Yeah, unless they're matched against a technically sound striker that can pick apart the holes in their game. I'd consider a few of those guys on that list, but not the ones that rely on haymakers. There's too many sound strikers in the sport now to still consider that elite striking. Also, the jab is the most important punch that there is, it pisses me off when fighters would rather engage in a staring contest instead of trying to establish their jab.

 

[Steel Mamba]

lol, those guys dont fit your requirements you used for cro cop, but cro cop isnt elite and those guys are?

This is what you said



AA has defense? He gets hit flush all the time, thats his biggest issue

Sherk? He has nice combos but has never beat anyone on his feet, pretty on the pads

BJ never threw a kick in his life, he has shown some flashes with his hands, but is more of a brawler and likes to scrap

Faber has really bad boxing technique

Diaz gets hit way to much, wheres the defense you are asking for?

Randy, sort of, 1 fight against chuck and than chuck with his 'no technique' KO's him clean twice, Randy doesnt have much power, but I like Randys style

Machida doesnt have good boxing technique, he proabbaly has the best tactical stand up going, but technique wise not really, Silva is all flash right now, dancing against Cote and Thales doesnt cut it, he probably is the most accurate though, when he has tried to kickbox and box he hasnt done that well

I could go on, but its early, you take away for cro cop's boxing, but dont count his kicks, his defense is as good as almost anyone on this list, plus Cro Cop has done more and out struck better fighters than any of these guys easily

You are again, like with Fedor, holding Cro Cop to a higher standard and basing these fighters on style over substance again

If those guys are 'elite' you cant tell me that Cro Cop was not, he has a better kicking game than everyone there and had a powerful straight left, he mostly got caught by grapplers and was looking for the shot, you dont think he has footwork? when he had his sprwal going and moving around the ring, his footwork was on point

oh and with Couture, like I said he's starting to make a claim as an elite striker. His striking is far better now than it was when he fought Chuck.

 

[Liquidrob]

I'm just trying to figure out that if his entire standup game is elite then why isn't he winning anymore? Still has the same speed and other aspects of his game seem to have gotten better, so why can't he stand and bang with the best of them anymore?

Footwork, he's quick on his feet for his size, but his footwork isn't exactly amazing either.
Look at this fight for example

[media]http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/Mirko+Cro+Cop/video/x1la0p_mirko-cro-cop-vs-aleksander-emelian_sport[/media]

Running straight towards the power of Aleks, a better striker would have just cut off the ring instead of chasing Cro Cop and caught him flush with the way he's moving there.

I might be nit picking a bit, Cro Cop was a beast back in the day, but those guys I listed have less holes in their game than Cro Cop does. They might not have the physical attributes, but they're more technically sound. Also, I understand Diaz has his flaws, which is why I pointed oout that only a few aspects of his game puts him on that list for me. Mainly his work rate, combinations, and variety of punches that he throws, in those categories he's elite.

Mirko isnt in it mentally anymore, he has money, has outside interests like in his country, etc...you watch him and you know his head isnt right sometimes

my point was, if you go by your criteria those guys are not elite either if Cro Cop isnt, my other point about MMA is that you wont have these elite strikers with a total game, there just isnt enough time to train it all

All those guys you listed are very good strikers (minus sherk) and are the elite strikers of MMA which is different than being elite outside of MMA when compared to boxers and kick boxers

Cro Cop was never as good as Ernesto Hoost or Peter Aerts in K1, but Cro Cop did and was able to move over to MMA and have success, guys like Lebanner couldnt do it and Hunt is struggling, Cro Cop devolped a sprwal and ground defense game

Machida would never reach Andy Hug level of using Karate in K1, but Machida has a total game and is a top notch MMA guy combined with his BJJ and wrestling

Also, at some point I would like to see Anderson beat a high level striker in MMA, maybe a Manhoef, etc...but if he wants to take him down and win that is fine also because it is MMA and not kick boxing, Anderson has tried kick boxing and boxing with so so results earlier in his career

 

[Liquidrob]

Yeah, unless they're matched against a technically sound striker that can pick apart the holes in their game. I'd consider a few of those guys on that list, but not the ones that rely on haymakers. There's too many sound strikers in the sport now to still consider that elite striking. Also, the jab is the most important punch that there is, it pisses me off when fighters would rather engage in a staring contest instead of trying to establish their jab.

establishing a jab could be a sound strategy in MMA, but its not as big as you think, when trying to work that jab and guys are throwing bombs with 4 ounce gloves it is a dangerous game, also you can take some solid lead leg kicks when trying to work the jab

fights were the jab was effective like Penn vs Sherk are different, Penn had reach on Sherk, also Sherk has midget arms and doesnt throw leg kicks, so it was perfect

If you get a good jab going, you still need sound defense which is a lot harder to have in MMA compared to boxing because of the glove size, I think the jab is only key in certain fights and where style dictates it, you cant go out in every fight and just say 'work the jab' in MMA

 

[Steel Mamba]

So if CroCop can't be considered an elite striker because his kicks were more devastating than his hands, how could the opposite stand true? How could someone like Rampage who rarely uses kicks be considered elite? Sure, his hands, technique, footwork is all good... but he is still lacking a category. So therefore he couldn't be elite either. Same with Sherk, etc.

I didn't list Rampage as elite, but it wasn't due to his lack of kicks. I think Rampage has the potential to be the best striker in the LHW division, but I think he has fallen too in love with the counter hooks and that's all he seems to want to throw now. His best striking performance in the UFC so far was against Hendo IMO, where he really opened up and let his hands go. I'd like to see Rampage fight like that more often, showing a wider variety of strikes, initiating, while still working in his good defensive and counter techniques. Right now he's been fighting a bit too one-dimensional.

So, what I'm looking at is a lot more than just punching/kicking ability, which is why a few guys who don't kick are on my list while Cro Cop isn't. It's about the overall fundamentals and technical skills of their game. That's footwork, ring generalship, strategy, work-rate, variety, and overall offensive/defensive technique and ability. I think some of those guys score better throughout all of those categories than Cro Cop does.

 

[Steel Mamba]

establishing a jab could be a sound strategy in MMA, but its not as big as you think, when trying to work that jab and guys are throwing bombs with 4 ounce gloves it is a dangerous game, also you can take some solid lead leg kicks when trying to work the jab

fights were the jab was effective like Penn vs Sherk are different, Penn had reach on Sherk, also Sherk has midget arms and doesnt throw leg kicks, so it was perfect

If you get a good jab going, you still need sound defense which is a lot harder to have in MMA compared to boxing because of the glove size, I think the jab is only key in certain fights and where style dictates it, you cant go out in every fight and just say 'work the jab' in MMA

I agree with that, the jab isn't of the same effectiveness as it is in boxing, but it's still important. Penn worked the jab on Hughes, Pulver, and a lot of other guys he fought, so it's not just about the reach adv.

 

[Liquidrob]

establishing a jab could be a sound strategy in MMA, but its not as big as you think, when trying to work that jab and guys are throwing bombs with 4 ounce gloves it is a dangerous game, also you can take some solid lead leg kicks when trying to work the jab

fights were the jab was effective like Penn vs Sherk are different, Penn had reach on Sherk, also Sherk has midget arms and doesnt throw leg kicks, so it was perfect

If you get a good jab going, you still need sound defense which is a lot harder to have in MMA compared to boxing because of the glove size, I think the jab is only key in certain fights and where style dictates it, you cant go out in every fight and just say 'work the jab' in MMA

also, to go on further about the jab in MMA, remember that a kick is a longer weapon than the jab, so styles should dictate when you try and establish the jab

Trying to jab with a really good kick boxer will get you lead leg destroyed, you just cant work an effective jab when a guy is dropping front and rear leg bombs on your leg, the best wepaon against kickers like that is a takedown or get into clinch range, not jabbing it

You really need to check those kicks and follow it in for a clinch or takedown, or shoot on the kick

In boxing you have bigger gloves (better defense), no threat of a kick or takedown, so its more of a given to establish your jab, where in MMA it can be costly and you really have many more weapons to worry about

 

[Liquidrob]

I agree with that, the jab isn't of the same effectiveness as it is in boxing, but it's still important. Penn worked the jab on Hughes, Pulver, and a lot of other guys he fought, so it's not just about the reach adv.

Pulver is a boxer now, he doesnt leg kick and even shoot anymore, of course BJ worked him, plus BJ has the reach advantage on Pulver

Hughes has subpar stand up and in there 2nd fight when it went more than a minute BJ wasnt really doing damage with it, some in the first round, but Hughes was able to get him down and beat him

It is still effective, but I think you are overrating the jab off a couple of fights

 

[Steel Mamba]

Jardine worked a pretty good jab against Chuck. So, there's your counter to it not being possible to work a jab against someone throwing bombs. I also think Kongo worked a jab against Cro Cop, so there it worked against a great kicker too.

 

[Liquidrob]

So, what I'm looking at is a lot more than just punching/kicking ability, which is why a few guys who don't kick are on my list while Cro Cop isn't. It's about the overall fundamentals and technical skills of their game. That's footwork, ring generalship, strategy, work-rate, variety, and overall offensive/defensive technique and ability. I think some of those guys score better throughout all of those categories than Cro Cop does.

what you described is basically chuck liddel in his prime minus what you consider fundamentals

chuck based his game around beating grapplers which in the UFC at the time was grappler heavy, I was never a big chuck fan and thought legit strikers would expose him which they finally did, but that doesnt mean he wasnt good

Chuck was an elite MMA striker and to his credit he beat Guy Metzger, Vitor Belfort and Overeem just with his stand up and I think this is where some of your arguement is flawed and you are ranking style over substance where you need to look at the overall picture more

Those 3 guys Chuck beat are better than any striker Silva and Machida ever beat, only guy you can say would be Rashad but he is way more raw than those 3 which have legit stand up backgrounds

Chuck did get outstruck by Rampage, Rashad and Shogun, but thats more his fault and not changing his style than anything, but Chuck beat who the UFC put in front of him for a long time and he has some nice stand up wins like Guy, Vitor and Overeem

lets see Silva and machida beat guys like that in a stand up game first before we lable tham striking gods

of course Chuck had weird fundamentals, but thats how he trained them believe or not, that was the gameplan during his UFC title run

just like you say you cant really judge machidas technique because he is using karate Chuck is in the same boat, he had a karate background and thats where his training is from

 

[Liquidrob]

Jardine worked a pretty good jab against Chuck. So, there's your counter to it not being possible to work a jab against someone throwing bombs. I also think Kongo worked a jab against Cro Cop, so there it worked against a great kicker too.

Jardines main weapon was leg kicks if I remember correctly, it was a total effort in combination, not just jabbing chuck in the face which didnt happen, I never said it cant work against bombs, I said you gotta be careful, of course it can work, but not to the extent you can in boxing becuase you can show better defense with the gloves and the lack of getting taken down and kicked

like I said, a jab can be effective, never said it wasnt, but in a boxing match you can say about the majority of the fights 'he needs to work the jab' and you would correct, doesnt work like that in MMA