Would you allow your son to play football?

[FedEx227]

Not trolling, or trying to sound grimm, or like a huge dick. But its one kid. Yes its horrible. I guess what Im saying is, how many played pop warner with him, that are living fine?

Again, the issue is a lot of these people aren't dead yet, so BU can only study those who have died and are willing to agree to donate their brains. It's still very hard to get a clear idea of the breadth of the problem.

 

[NAHSTE]

There have in fact been 12-13 year old brains with CTE found on them, and more than one in fact. The problem is it's not like a dead 12 year old's brain is just readily available at all times. For those saying "it's just one guy!" or "it's a small number of the population!" you have to consider that they have only been collecting brains to research for the last 5-8 years. We are talking about neurological research that requires donors. It's going to take a long time to gather more data, because the awareness is only just now at a level where more people are willing to submit their brains to science. However, the evidence gathered so far has been pretty damn conclusive in finding that CTE begins developing at a young age, and you don't even need to play in HS to have traces of it.

I don't know about you guys, but I am thinking of signing up to be a brain donor. They need a variety of athletic backgrounds to test against, especially to silence the uneducated mass of people who still think this is a problem isolated to pro or college football. It's happening to our 10 year olds too, so we should probably start giving a few more fucks.

 

[CCBrink]

:yep:

 

[Aso]

Not sure if CTE

Or just stupid

 

[Sven Draconian]

This is an interesting and obviously scary topic.

For starters, none of this holds water statistically. Performing a brain autopsy on dead, former players tells us very little. Where is the control group? What other factors were there (other sports, car accidents, abusive parents, drug abuse, genetics ect ect ect).

Obviously, Alzheimer (et al,) isn't reserved for former players. What's the baseline. Unfortunately, most people do not have autopsy's performed on their brains, so we can't measure the effects.

A lot of this issue is fear-mongering. Some of it is backed up by real (scary) evidence.

Interestingly, HS basketball has a higher rate of concussions than football. The NFL rate is something around 10% of players (per season). The high school rate is about 5% (no data for college). High School Basketball is right around 7-8%. Naturally, a football team has a lot more players, so there are going to be more total concussions, but as a rate... basketball is touch higher.

 

[FirstTimer]

This is an interesting and obviously scary topic.

For starters, none of this holds water statistically. Performing a brain autopsy on dead, former players tells us very little. Where is the control group? What other factors were there (other sports, car accidents, abusive parents, drug abuse, genetics ect ect ect).

Obviously, Alzheimer (et al,) isn't reserved for former players. What's the baseline. Unfortunately, most people do not have autopsy's performed on their brains, so we can't measure the effects.

A lot of this issue is fear-mongering. Some of it is backed up by real (scary) evidence.

Interestingly, HS basketball has a higher rate of concussions than football. The NFL rate is something around 10% of players (per season). The high school rate is about 5% (no data for college). High School Basketball is right around 7-8%. Naturally, a football team has a lot more players, so there are going to be more total concussions, but as a rate... basketball is touch higher.

You have a study for that? Because I don't buy that at all.

Ignore the gay website name for the first two but this site(and it's citations) directly contradicts what you're saying. So does the CDC

http://www.momsteam.com/health-safety/concussion-rates-high-school-sports
http://www.momsteam.com/concussion-rates-in-high-school-sports

http://masonresearch.gmu.edu/2012/03/concussions-on-the-rise-for-high-school-athletes/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22287642
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5538a1.htm#fig1

 

[NAHSTE]

This is an interesting and obviously scary topic.

For starters, none of this holds water statistically. Performing a brain autopsy on dead, former players tells us very little. Where is the control group? What other factors were there (other sports, car accidents, abusive parents, drug abuse, genetics ect ect ect).

The control group is other dead people's brains. Obviously we need more research to know for sure what amount of scar tissue is "average", but the brains belonging to former football players, hockey players and boxers are turning up a significant amount of CTE compared with "normal" levels. People are dying young with as much scar tissue as 80 year old Azheimer's patients. Of course there are a ton of external factors at play which can also lead to brain damage, and we do not have enough information to prove with certainty that football is 100% causative of CTE, but the correlation is looking stronger and stronger with each case study.

Obviously, Alzheimer (et al,) isn't reserved for former players. What's the baseline. Unfortunately, most people do not have autopsy's performed on their brains, so we can't measure the effects.

Sure, a lot of people develop Alzheimer's, and it's a very real and very terrible problem for all of society that we do not have a cure for. The difference between football players and the general population however, is how early the symptoms of dementia appear. Ben Utecht is in his early 30s and is already showing severe memory loss. Dave Duerson complained of memory loss and uncontrollable emotions and he was just past 40. Those are just two examples of what is likely hundreds of players.

Interestingly, HS basketball has a higher rate of concussions than football. The NFL rate is something around 10% of players (per season). The high school rate is about 5% (no data for college). High School Basketball is right around 7-8%. Naturally, a football team has a lot more players, so there are going to be more total concussions, but as a rate... basketball is touch higher.

Participants in this discussion often focus too narrowly on concussions. The amount of repeated hits to the head in football between practices and games is the concern. Concussions are obviously bad for you. But if the evidence is to be believed, playing football at all is bad for you, even if you are lucky enough to never sustain a concussion.

 

[Sven Draconian]

You have a study for that? Because I don't buy that at all.

Ignore the gay website name for the first two but this site(and it's citations) directly contradicts what you're saying. So does the CDC

http://www.momsteam.com/health-safety/concussion-rates-high-school-sports
http://www.momsteam.com/concussion-rates-in-high-school-sports

http://masonresearch.gmu.edu/2012/03/concussions-on-the-rise-for-high-school-athletes/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22287642
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5538a1.htm#fig1

I only clicked your first two links, but it already addresses the fundamental problem with these articles. They list at least 5 different rates of concussions. Including citing that any player who participates in a contact sport has a 20% risk of sustaining a concussion, while actual athletic trainers cite the number that 5% of athletes sustain a concussion.

It also claims that there is at least 1 concussion per game.

Too many contradictions, and too much cherry-picking articles.

FYI I went back and re-read the article I pulled those numbers from. The NFL/HS football numbers are accurate (and, easily verified)... appears the basketball numbers were pulled out of thin air by somebody trying to make a point. Disregard.

The control group is other dead people's brains. Obviously we need more research to know for sure what amount of scar tissue is "average", but the brains belonging to former football players, hockey players and boxers are turning up a significant amount of CTE compared with "normal" levels. People are dying young with as much scar tissue as 80 year old Azheimer's patients. Of course there are a ton of external factors at play which can also lead to brain damage, and we do not have enough information to prove with certainty that football is 100% causative of CTE, but the correlation is looking stronger and stronger with each case study.

Who's brains? Why did they die? What did they do? We are talking about MILLIONS of ex-football players, a dozen examples prove absolutely nothing.

Edited to also add, we do not when an 80 year old man with Azheimer's developed the scar tissue. It could have developed at 20 and symptoms did not appear until much later. We don't know, because we don't cut into living people's head... and healthy people don't get scanned for fun. That is the issue with these studies.

Sure, a lot of people develop Alzheimer's, and it's a very real and very terrible problem for all of society that we do not have a cure for. The difference between football players and the general population however, is how early the symptoms of dementia appear. Ben Utecht is in his early 30s and is already showing severe memory loss. Dave Duerson complained of memory loss and uncontrollable emotions and he was just past 40. Those are just two examples of what is likely hundreds of players.

This is exactly the problem. There are a LOT of people who experience this that have never played football. We also do not know anything else that might have caused it (Drinking, drugs). For example, Seau (who will almost certainly have a ton of scar tissue), what about the other factors... pain killers, steroids, PEDs?

 

[BrntO4Life]

A lot of this issue is fear-mongering. Some of it is backed up by real (scary) evidence.

What, in this whole issue, is fear-mongering? SIX kids born after 1990 have died as a result of CTE in 2010 & 2011. Overall, 14 people died in 2011 alone from CTE-related symptoms.

It sounds like a real issue to me and it's only going to get worse.

This is exactly the problem. There are a LOT of people who experience this that have never played football. We also do not know anything else that might have caused it (Drinking, drugs). For example, Seau (who will almost certainly have a ton of scar tissue), what about the other factors... pain killers, steroids, PEDs?

Are you joking? You seriously aren't getting the bigger picture. Yes, "a LOT of people" suffer from Alzheimer's, but almost none begin having these sorts of issues in their 30s and 40s. Every old NFL player studied has had tau protein levels that were off-the-charts. Like NAHSTE said, 70-80 year-old man levels. This isn't a coincidence. There's a hard link and it didn't take long to find.

 

[Sven Draconian]

What, in this whole issue, is fear-mongering? SIX kids born after 1990 have died as a result of CTE in 2010 & 2011. Overall, 14 people died in 2011 alone from CTE-related symptoms.

SIX out of how many? There are 400,000 participating in Pop Warner... just one organization. That's the fear mongering.

Similarly,
"How many people die every year as a result of dog bites?

Ten to twenty people die every year as a result of dog bites in the U.S. By far, the majority of the victims are children. During 1995 and 1996, 25 people died after being bitten by a dog. Twenty of those victims were children under twelve years of age. Eleven persons died of dog bite injuries in 1997; nine of them were children, one was a teenager and one was an elderly woman."


Or maybe,

"In 2004, there were 3,308 unintentional drownings in the United States, an average of nine people per day.(CDC 2006)"
U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention coupled with...

"Children under five and adolescents between the ages of 15-24 have the highest drowning rates."

It sounds like a real issue to me and it's only going to get worse.



Are you joking? You seriously aren't getting the bigger picture. Yes, "a LOT of people" suffer from Alzheimer's, but almost none begin having these sorts of issues in their 30s and 40s. Every old NFL player studied has had tau protein levels that were off-the-charts. Like NAHSTE said, 70-80 year-old man levels. This isn't a coincidence. There's a hard link and it didn't take long to find.

You are mixing 2 separate issues here. Your "typical" youth/high school player and NFL players. I don't think anybody (myself included) are seriously questioning that playing in the NFL f*cks your brain up. What myself, and a lot of people question, is the link to youth sports.

 

[BrntO4Life]

SIX out of how many? There are 400,000 participating in Pop Warner... just one organization. That's the fear mongering.

Similarly,
"How many people die every year as a result of dog bites?

Ten to twenty people die every year as a result of dog bites in the U.S. By far, the majority of the victims are children. During 1995 and 1996, 25 people died after being bitten by a dog. Twenty of those victims were children under twelve years of age. Eleven persons died of dog bite injuries in 1997; nine of them were children, one was a teenager and one was an elderly woman."

Or maybe, "In 2004, there were 3,308 unintentional drownings in the United States, an average of nine people per day.(CDC 2006)"
U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention coupled with...

"Children under five and adolescents between the ages of 15-24 have the highest drowning rates."

And how many of your awesomely paralleled examples came about, statistically, within the last 5 years? Those afraid of what this can do to the sport they love consider this fear-mongering. Those of us with realistic perspectives understand this isn't going to get better in 10 years - it will only worsen.

How many adolescent deaths does it take for you to give a shit about what this sport is doing to people? 200,000? Seems you're the one lacking perspective here.

You are mixing 2 separate issues here. Your "typical" youth/high school player and NFL players. I don't think anybody (myself included) are seriously questioning that playing in the NFL f*cks your brain up. What myself, and a lot of people question, is the link to youth sports.

Owen Thomas was a Junior reserve lineman at Penn when he hung himself at 21. Analysis of his brain showed early-onset CTE. He started playing football at 10. It only takes 11 years of contact to lose impulse control and commit suicide as a result of CTE.

He never played in the NFL and he played at a lower level of collegiate sports. You're wrong in assuming it's just an NFL issue. Scar tissue begins to build up the moment you strap on a helmet and bang heads with others.

 

[Bomberooski]

Yes I absolutely would because football is awesome.

 

[Senser81]

"Children under five have the highest drowning rates."

I don't mean this in a purely derogatory way...but I've seen you post for like 5 years now and the jury is still out on whether or not you are a good poster.

 

[Sven Draconian]

And how many of your awesomely paralleled examples came about, statistically, within the last 5 years? Those afraid of what this can do to the sport they love consider this fear-mongering. Those of us with realistic perspectives understand this isn't going to get better in 10 years - it will only worsen.

Do you have evidence that this came about within the last 5 years? It was not studied previously, therefore, we have no idea when it began.

How many adolescent deaths does it take for you to give a shit about what this sport is doing to people? 200,000? Seems you're the one lacking perspective here.

I would like it to be proven that the sport is doing it to people, and that it is doing it at a rate more dangerous than things like swimming or playing with a dog.

Further, there are more incidents of heat exhaustion (which is probably under-reported, considering that there is valid, well-researched evidence) and just as many spinal cord injuries. So if the premise was that football is too dangerous for my son to play, THIS evidence is dwarfed by the already understood risks.

Owen Thomas was a Junior reserve lineman at Penn when he hung himself at 21. Analysis of his brain showed early-onset CTE. He started playing football at 10. It only takes 11 years of contact to lose impulse control and commit suicide as a result of CTE.

He never played in the NFL and he played at a lower level of collegiate sports. You're wrong in assuming it's just an NFL issue. Scar tissue begins to build up the moment you strap on a helmet and bang heads with others.

Because, of course, it was proven that Thomas committed suicide as a result of CTE (it wasn't) and only football players commit suicide.

All of this ignores the millions of people who have played football and went on to live a normal life.

What I would like to see are separate studies done with a statistically relevant threshold by separate laboratories. Not the Boston University research department performs a brain autopsy and claims suicide via CTE.

For reference there have been excellent (and depressing) studies done on the impact receiving a 2nd concussion before recovering from the first (2nd impact syndrome). It has been researched by multiple groups and has well-defined parameters.

 

[RosettaStoned]

Sven, this is a case where correlation =/= causation doesn't apply. You lack the basic scientific knowledge that one would need to know to know that telling a morbidly obese person to do HIIT cardio is a bad idea at best, and potentially life threatening at worse. What's worse is that you're a paleotard to boot.


I'm on my phone, or I would love to go into detail.. but suffice to say you've given us all enough material to know you're completely ignorant.

Senser that jury decided a long time ago.

 

[Pitty]

Not sure if CTE

Or just stupid

Meme-fail.

 

[Sven Draconian]

Sven, this is a case where correlation =/= causation doesn't apply. You lack the basic scientific knowledge that one would need to know to know that telling a morbidly obese person to do HIIT cardio is a bad idea at best, and potentially life threatening at worse. What's worse is that you're a paleotard to boot.


I'm on my phone, or I would love to go into detail.. but suffice to say you've given us all enough material to know you're completely ignorant.

Senser that jury decided a long time ago.

That's interesting, troll.

What is the correlation? That NFL players suffer CTE (nobody ever disputed it). What else are we looking at? To my knowledge, and please, post a link otherwise, that has studied the brains of deceased former high school football players.

If the evidence is that 6 kids under 14 have died from CTE, which is roughly .006% of participants, then no... I do not take that seriously.

 

[FedEx227]

The issue isn't people dying of CTE, but rather dying of other things looking at their brain and seeing degenerative brain tissue at such an early age.

 

[Tailback U]

Nobody is arguing that getting hit in the head is good for you or that head trauma can't lead to CTE and severe depression.

My gripe is that people are overly quick to say "Football -> concussions -> suicide/death."

This is a quick google search and the source is wikipedia so obviously it could be horribly wrong and I have no idea how the overall number of people who play baseball compared to football even looks like, but I googled "baseball players who have committed suicide" and found 52 people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Baseball_players_who_committed_suicide.

Google "football players who have commited suicide" and you'll find 19 players named: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Players_of_American_football_who_committed_suicide

Not saying it means anything, I'm just saying. Take it for whatever it's worth.

 

[shag773]

Short answer, yes I would. But I would be very much involved with how he was coached, and I would go the extra mile to make sure he has the proper equipment to protect himself, even putting out extra dough for equipment that isn't provided.

However its not something I would push for him to do. I'm not going to even bring it up to him.