Your Top 10 Favorite Players of All-Time

[Senser81]

But please, explain to me more about cause and effect. lhoss:

Cause: Terrible ref doing NC St. bball game

Effect: Tom Gugliotta kicked out of game

 

[Len B]

You aren't getting it. My point was about 2007 (not 2007 and on), because that year Brady had arguably the best statistical year for a QB ever and didn't win the Super Bowl...following your logic, this would make Brady LESS of a leader because even though he played well his team didn't win the Super Bowl. I don't think that was the case.

Your point about Brady pre 2007 being considered a legendary leader is mostly irrelevent because Brady pre 2007 was also a great player. He went to 3 pro bowls in 6 years, led the league in passing yardage, led the league in TDs, had one of the highest win% of any QB in history, etc. So if your point is that Walker was just as much of a leader as Brady it just that Brady won titles and Walker didn't, then: 1) thats a truly moronic statement on its own because of its illogical basis, and 2) its a bad comparison because Brady was a much better NFL player than Walker was an NBA player.

Dilfer was a great leader. All of his teammates loved him. I figure he would be good to compare to Walker because both were drafted high, were considered to be busts, and had slightly above-average skills.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I agree with you that in no way, shape or form is Antoine Walker even close to Tom Brady in terms of intangibles, leadership, clutch, etc.

I agree with you that Antoine Walker was NOT an All-Star basketball player consistently and that he shot a shit ton of ill advised shots, and did have his fair share of turnovers. To be fair, Walker did make three all-star games as well.

I stand corrected on Dilfer, and will say good comparison if that is the case. I thought it was the defense that was the renowned leader of the team, but I guess I'm wrong on that. However, he is not a bust. How can you be a bust when you aren't a top 5 pick, you make 3 all-star teams and you still performed night in and night out your first 6+ seasons? Let's not just throw the word bust around.

I'm making my point as if you grew up in Boston, which I do apologize for. In Boston circa 2002, Antoine Walker was despised and fans were ready to kick him out of town despite helping the Celtics elevate their game and make a deep run in the playoffs in back to back seasons with a completely horrendous cast. People who say it was Pierce who helped them get there were wrong. Pierce was still a young, albeit very incredible player, but his leadership was non existant.

Meanwhile, Tom Brady had won a Superbowl, had marginal statistics and every fan thought he was the epitome of leadership -- it turned out they were right, but at the time that wasn't the point.

The point was that leadership only matters to fans around here if you win a title or if you don't. I thought what Walker was able to do with the likes of Tony Delk, Walter McCarty, Tony Battie, etc. was an incredible display of leadership. But because he didn't have the stereotypical NBA game, people didn't like him. They miss out on his versatility and leadership and just point out his flaws. That's all the point is.

If it were just you and I talking it'd be easier, but I have to deal with the moronic FT who has even admitted to Fedex and others he never watched early 2000's basketball. In his eyes I'm a homer who is spewing Antoine Walker love to beyond great heights, but considering I underrate Paul Pierce I'm not sure how that fits into the puzzle.

 

[Len B]

And people make it seem as if Walker playing on a bad team was a disadvantage, but, again, what good team would allow Walker to miss so many shots and handle the ball so much? If Walker were on a good team, he'd probably average 12ppg, 7rebs, 1.5 asts. Pretty good numbers, but not all star numbers.

I don't get the logic of this at all, if you don't mind explaining why you feel this way. When Walker was over the hill and on the champion Miami Heat, he came off the bench and had 12/5/2 in just 26 minutes per game. Base it off the standard 36 per and you have a 16/7/3 guy who is past his prime. Because he touched the ball less his shot percentage was higher than almost any season in Boston. It wasn't very good, but it was good for Walker. Antoine was at his best on the block, had he been on a good team he'd be forced to stay down low and grab rebounds (which he did very well) and score in the post (which he did very well).

Being on a bad team will inflate your points per game totals if you're shooting much more than you should be, but it doesn't mean that you'll be a worse player. Structure and proper coaching would have made Walker one of the better players in the league. He had the talent to do so, and you can't deny that he didn't considering his college career and his flashes of All-Star ability. You can't just take his stats and adjust them based on being on a new team.

You put a 25 year old Antoine Walker on a good team that doesn't require him to run the offense, and I think you see a much better player.

 

[Len B]

Was funny going back and reading his college scouting report. You say he was a bust, but what exactly were the expectations for a non-top 5 pick in the NBA? His career played out just like the report would say.

 

Antoine can handle the ball well for a small forward. But too small
for the power forward spot. Has range from the college 3pt. line.
Can and will pass the ball. In his sophmore season was finally becoming
the player Pitino thought he would be. Plays defense well.

Strenghts - Does everything well
Weakness - Doesn't excel in anything

The 2nd best player on Kentucky last season, Antoine Walker started
to blossom into a superstar his sophomore season. A big-time
recruit out of Chicago, Antoine Walker was annointed the next
Jamal Mashburn his freshman season, even wearing Mashburn's #24
uniform number. Who could you blame for the comparisons -- Walker
had the all-around game, the offensive explosiveness, the ability to
play inside and outside. His freshman year saw him play mostly
a supporting role, until the SEC tournament where he really shone
and was named Tournament MVP. But last season he really started to
live up to the expectations that were set upon him.

As stated previously, Antoine Walker (like several Kentucky players)
has a well-diversified game with multiple skills, especially
offensively. Walker can flat out score, and gets his points from
a variety of ways. He is a dangerous mid-range shooter, and can
also take the ball to the hole very well, and can finish in a variety
of ways (as shown by his drive past Erik Dampier this season, while
switching to his left hand for the layup to avoid the shot block).
While not a big-time leaper, Walker is an excellent finisher. Walker
has a tremendous inside game and takes the ball to the basket very
strong, with no regard to who his defender is. While this is quite
effective most of the time, sometimes it's as if he thinks he's
playing back in high school, and can sometimes can get him in
trouble against a taller player. If there's one kink in the armor
of Walker's offensive game though, it's his outside shooting. After
a freshman season in which he showed some potential from deep, his
sophomore season was very forgettable from 3-pt land. He never
showed the range nor consistency all season. His form even looked
funny, often times it looks like a flat, shotput-like missle hurled
towards the basket. It's certainly something that Walker will need
to work on for the pros.

To complement his scoring, Antoine Walker is also a nice passer and
ball-handler. He finished 2nd on the team in assists behind point
guard Anthony Epps, and often times had some very special-looking
passes to teamates for easy hoops. Like teammate Walter McCarty,
Walker is an excellent interior passer. He also has a tremendous
handle, and often after getting the defensive rebound, would take
the ball up the court himself and set up a teammate for the score.
Defensively, Walker can be a terror when motivated. He often was
the lead man in Kentucky's press, as he guarded the man out of
bounds. He has quick hands, which often leads to steals (where he
finished tied for 2nd on the team) and instant fast breaks. Walker
also has some pretty nice rebounding skills, and led the team in
that department last season. He is capable of putting up double
doubles at times.

On a negative note however, Walker does seem to be more of a "me
first" type of player. His early declaration for the NBA draft
somewhat reflected that (along with his family situation). While he
did fit into Pitino's team concept at UK, sometimes it did seem like
Walker would sulk if things weren't working out for him, much like
how former UK player Rodrick Rhodes would do. Coming out of
HS, Walker was known as a notorious trash talker, and while he never
really showed that at UK, he does have a reputation. This baggage
really is rather minor, however, as the fact he did fit into the
team concept at UK and didn't hinder at all (and in fact, was a major
player) in Kentucky's national championship run.

While Walker played a lot of PF (and sometimes C) at Kentucky --
mostly due to necessity -- his position is firmly at SF for the NBA.
Sizewise and game-wise, it's a perfect fit. Teams will be able to
utilize his low-post game in their schemes to their advantage. He
may see some time at PF in an emergency. If he improves his outside
shot enough, Walker may very well end up seeing a lot of time at
SG, considering his ball-handling skills.

The fact that Antoine Walker left early for the draft during his
Kentucky career didn't surprise UK fans -- the fact he did it after
his sophomore year did. But considering the fact that he's projected
as a lottery pick, who can blame him. Antoine Walker will likely
be the 2nd SF taken in the draft, after John Wallace.

 

[Senser81]

If Walker were on a good team, he'd probably average 12ppg, 7rebs, 1.5 asts. Pretty good numbers, but not all star numbers.

I don't get the logic of this at all, if you don't mind explaining why you feel this way. When Walker was over the hill and on the champion Miami Heat, he came off the bench and had 12/5/2 in just 26 minutes per game.

 

[Len B]

:walker:

You're way smarter than this, I'm baffled. He was past his prime and only playing 26 minutes per game and still put up those numbers that you forecasted.

You mean to tell me a 23-27 year old Antoine Walker in his prime would put up the exact same numbers with more minutes?

:lol:

When it gets to this point there's no more reason to post about this.

 

[FirstTimer]

moronic FT who has even admitted to Fedex and others he never watched early 2000's basketball. .

I actually admitted no such thing.

LOL at you still being an idiot about this.

 

[Senser81]

:walker:

You're way smarter than this, I'm baffled. He was past his prime and only playing 26 minutes per game and still put up those numbers that you forecasted.

You mean to tell me a 23-27 year old Antoine Walker in his prime would put up the exact same numbers with more minutes?

:lol:

When it gets to this point there's no more reason to post about this.

Wait, you mean to tell me that when Walker was on a good team, he no longer led the NBA in minutes played?? You don't say.

And not leading the NBA in minutes played and shots attempted has an affect on your statistics?? You don't say.

Walker was 29 when he was on Miami, so its not like he was over-the-hill. I would like to see what numbers other superstar players were putting up when they were 29...I doubt they were characterized as being "past their prime". Gimme a break.

 

[Senser81]

Meanwhile, Tom Brady had won a Superbowl, had marginal statistics and every fan thought he was the epitome of leadership -- it turned out they were right, but at the time that wasn't the point.

Don't know why you keep "marginalizing" Tom Brady in an effort to make Walker look better. In 2001, he was a pro bowl QB despite that being his first year of playing. He played well in the playoffs, and he was basically their entire offense in the Raiders and Rams game. Brady has always been better than Walker. There has never been a point when the two were "comparable".

If it were just you and I talking it'd be easier, but I have to deal with the moronic FT who has even admitted to Fedex and others he never watched early 2000's basketball.

I've tried to avoid taking sides here...but if I had to pin the "moron" tag on someone in this thread, it would definitely be you, not FT.

 

[Senser81]

Being on a bad team will inflate your points per game totals if you're shooting much more than you should be, but it doesn't mean that you'll be a worse player.

I never said it did, so that "tidbit" makes your entire posting worthless. If you can't understand my original posting, which said that a player's statistics can be inflated on a bad team because on a bad team a player can get more minutes, shots, ball-handling opportunities, etc., then thats your problem.

 

[Len B]

Holy fuck this is mesmorizing. Yes, a top ten NBA draft pick who has proven he can play in the league as a good #2 option would only play 26 minutes per game in his prime. You win Senser and FT.

I'm bowing out of this thread, otherwise I'll still be here in 10 years when little SenserTimer is on the forums posting arguments about how Andy Dalton should be in the Hall of Fame. I appreciate the fun talk about my favorite player.

 

[FirstTimer]

I'm bowing out of this thread, .

You basically said the same thing 24 hours ago..yet you're still here.

:lol:

 

[Senser81]

Holy fuck this is mesmorizing. Yes, a top ten NBA draft pick who has proven he can play in the league as a good #2 option would only play 26 minutes per game in his prime. You win Senser and FT.

Pretty awesome...before you were saying that Walker wasn't a bust because he wasn't a "top 5" pick...now he should be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his playing abilities because he was a "top ten NBA draft pick". So I guess if you are an NBA prospect, you want to be drafted in spots #6-10, because you have no expectations, but you are assumed to be awesome.

For the third time, you are missing the point. I'm not looking at specifics, and at no time did I reference Walker's tenure with the Heat. I said that if a prime Walker (aged 23-27....LOL) were on a better team than the woeful Celtics, he wouldn't be leading the NBA in shot attempts and he wouldn't be handling the ball THAT often. This would have an effect on his scoring and assist totals. I know, its rocket science, but I am usually on the cutting edge of sports statistics.

 

[FirstTimer]

Pretty awesome...before you were saying that Walker wasn't a bust because he wasn't a "top 5" pick...now he should be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his playing abilities because he was a "top ten NBA draft pick". So I guess if you are an NBA prospect, you want to be drafted in spots #6-10, because you have no expectations, but you are assumed to be awesome.

For the third time, you are missing the point. I'm not looking at specifics, and at no time did I reference Walker's tenure with the Heat. I said that if a prime Walker (aged 23-27....LOL) were on a better team than the woeful Celtics, he wouldn't be leading the NBA in shot attempts and he wouldn't be handling the ball THAT often. This would have an effect on his scoring and assist totals. I know, its rocket science, but I am usually on the cutting edge of sports statistics.

What software are you on right now?

 

[manchild24]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Allen Iverson (the guy was barely 6 ft and played all heart)
3. Larry Bird
4. Kobe
5. LeBron (as much as I hate to admit it/ I dont enjoy watching him and wont watch him but he gets his due)
6. Isiah Thomas
7. Shaq
8. David Robinson
9. Stockton
10. Hakeem

There are other guys but these are just the one I threw up there.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Allen Iverson (the guy was barely 6 ft and played all heart)
3. Larry Bird
4. Kobe
5. LeBron (as much as I hate to admit it/ I dont enjoy watching him and wont watch him but he gets his due)
6. Isiah Thomas
7. Shaq
8. David Robinson
9. Stockton
10. Hakeem

There are other guys but these are just the one I threw up there.

Aren't you from DC? Shame on you. I want to see an edited list with Jeff Malone, Michael Adams, and Wes Unseld.

 

[nwfisch]

Ronnie Brewer
Kirk Hinrich
Brad Miller
Taj Gibson (THE DAGGER OVER WADE)
CJ Watson
Kyle Korver
Omer ASIK AND DESTROY
The White Mamba :bsmug:
JL3 over LeBron !111111
Jimmy Butler with heartz and stuffz