Most overrated player in baseball

[FedEx227]

Many people thought he was, but again, here is a guy who would spike his own mother to break up a double play, and do anything it took to win. That stuff rubs off, and he won everywhere he went.

He's another guy who OPS doesn't treat fairly, because its a stat that favors a slugger who K's a lot and hits into DP's, over a good hitter who does neither. Never mind baserunning, fielding, and non boxscore things like moving runners over, going first to third, etc.

This is why I have shifted my thoughts on OPS and OPS+ to using it to compare hitters with similar skill sets, as opposed to "well, this guy was 127, this guy was 108, so that's that." Thats short sighted imo.

But in baseball we aren't talking about a game that necessarily requires different skill sets in regards to offense.

In basketball it's retarded to compare John Stockton's numbers to Wilt Chamberlin because obvious they played different roles on their teams. Role that are necessary for the function of an NBA team.

You can argue all you want but the majority of superstar MLB players have decent power numbers. That's what drives run production more than anything, more than ability to bunt, more than ability to foul off pitches, etc. To me, that's where Ichiro is overrated. Is he the best slap hitter? By a mile. No doubt. Is he one of the better leadoff/2-hole hitters in the game? Absolutely. I'm not arguing that. But where should that rank among MLB "superstars" when slap hitters don't necessarily drive winning baseball.

[FedEx227]

Personally I dont care about OPS that much. Just in Ichiro's case (whos low total for doulbes was 27 high 40+ bye the way) whats the differnce if (example only)
Tori Hunter hits 130 singles and 45 doubles 20 steals
Ichiro hits 170 singles 30 doubles and 45 SBs (thats like hitting 75 doubles if he steals frst to second, who cares how he got there.)

The risk/reward in hitting a double vs. attempting to steal to get to double makes it a very large difference.

[FirstTimer]

But in baseball we aren't talking about a game that necessarily requires different skill sets in regards to offense.

In basketball it's retarded to compare John Stockton's numbers to Wilt Chamberlin because obvious they played different roles on their teams. Role that are necessary for the function of an NBA team.

You can argue all you want but the majority of superstar MLB players have decent power numbers. That's what drives run production more than anything, more than ability to bunt, more than ability to foul off pitches, etc. To me, that's where Ichiro is overrated. Is he the best slap hitter? By a mile. No doubt. Is he one of the better leadoff/2-hole hitters in the game? Absolutely. I'm not arguing that. But where should that rank among MLB "superstars" when slap hitters don't necessarily drive winning baseball.

I see your point but IMO Ichiro falls into that Stockton vs Chamberlian argument because Ichiro is asked to do something very different than many of the superstars in todays game and whathe is asked to do differently he does better than pretty much anyone else who is asked to do the same thing(and by a pretty fair margin).

If your point is that you don't think a slappy leadoff hitter should be considered a super star, and people view him as such, and that makes him overrated I get it. I don't agree but I see the line of thinking.

IMO though Ichiro is the best at what he does in baseball and that makes him on of the better players in baseball. So IMO Ichiro isn't overrated.

[Warner2BruceTD]

The risk/reward in hitting a double vs. attempting to steal to get to double makes it a very large difference.

Anyone who would take the first stat line is nuts. Even if Ichiro gets caught stealing 10 times (which would be a lot) that only erases 10 hits. He still has 30 more hits and ends up on second more times.

[FedEx227]

I see your point but IMO Ichiro falls into that Stockton vs Chamberlian argument because Ichiro is asked to do something very different than many of the superstars in todays game and whathe is asked to do differently he does better than pretty much anyone else who is asked to do the same thing(and by a pretty fair margin).

If your point is that you don't think a slappy leadoff hitter should be considered a super star, and people view him as such, and that makes him overrated I get it. I don't agree but I see the line of thinking.

IMO though Ichiro is the best at what he does in baseball and that makes him on of the better players in baseball. So IMO Ichiro isn't overrated.

Is he asked to do it or does he do it? That's what I'm kind of getting at. Do you think the Mariners would really care if he bat .310 but hit more doubles and a few more home runs?

[FedEx227]

Anyone who would take the first stat line is nuts. Even if Ichiro gets caught stealing 10 times (which would be a lot) that only erases 10 hits. He still has 30 more hits and ends up on second more times.

I wasn't responding to any specific stat line just addressing his idea that he doesn't care if you get to second base by a double or a stolen base. Just saying you should prefer someone who hits doubles vs. someone who hits single and has to steal to get to 2B. It's just way more risky.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Things like playing every day (and at a high level) so you are not replaced by a replacement level bum, working counts to wear out pitchers, putting balls in play which leads to bases advanced/errors/more times on base etc, avoiding DP's, these are all things that OPS can not measure and absolutely contribute to winning baseball games. I am not discounting slugging, you are discounting the total sum of what occurs on the field.

[FedEx227]

....but I'm not saying Ichiro is bad.

He's a very, very good baseball player but to me the true superstars and true run producers of MLB are guys with well rounded games or big power. Thus why I think he's overrated.

Don't get it twisted that I'm saying Ichiro is bad or I don't appreciate what he's doing. I absolutely do, but he's being paid and he's perceived as an elite player when I don't think he is. That's all.

[Warner2BruceTD]

How many times do you think Ichiro gets on base via fielders choice, error, hits that should be charged as error, beating out DP's, etc? These are things that occur via contact, hidden bases that do not show up in stats.

How many GIDP does it take to nullify a HR in terms of creating runs?

[FirstTimer]

Is he asked to do it or does he do it?

I think as a function of what Ichiro does and the way he plays he's going to get a lot of base hits and not a bunch of extra base hits. I see why you can hold it against him to a certain extent but also looking at a guy like Rickey Henderson, who obviously is considered by many the greatest leadoff hitter of all time, Ichiro's extra base hit per year averages are pretty much the same. Doubles, Triples, and HR's are all with in one or two of eachother.

If you consider Henderson an elite player(not sure if you do) then Ichiro has to be at or near it. Like I said Ichiro is the best at what he does in baseball and has a tremendous overall skill set. IMO that makes him an elite player.

[manchild24]

How many times do you think Ichiro gets on base via fielders choice, error, hits that should be charged as error, beating out DP's, etc? These are things that occur via contact, hidden bases that do not show up in stats.

How many GIDP does it take to nullify a HR in terms of creating runs?

http://www.tangotiger.net/rc2.html

You can figure it out. Im done with math.

[FedEx227]

Is anyone more UNDERRATED then Shin Shoo Choo?

[FirstTimer]

Is anyone more UNDERRATED then Shin Shoo Choo?

[manchild24]

We then Beltre (my starting Fantasy 3rd baseman, his 90 million dollar deal and .095svg) is OVER-RATED clap-clap----clap-clap-clap

[FedEx227]

Probably the best arm in baseball right now, awesome hitter, getting more power. Really, really underrated.