Enough is enough. Peyton Manning is the greatest QB of all time.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Larry, you are too smart for this when it comes to modern QB's. It's not the same as WR's & RB's, amd you named three guys who played the majority if not all of their careers pre offensive explosion of the "head injury era".

His "monster numbers" aren't monster at all. They are average compared to the people he is playing against. Across the board. Even the areas he excels, like yards & TD's, he barely ever finishes Top 5. Never Top 3. Never leads the league.

There are seven QBs that will go to the Hall of Fame from this era...it includes Eli. He and Roethlisberger have essentially the same resume going in...if you "wouldn't gripe if someone did (vote for Roethlisberger in the Hall of Fame)." the only conclusion I can draw is you have an incredible bias against Eli Manning.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Plunkett's career was marred by injury. After 75, he only played one full season. Plunkett got his #2ringz on the tail end of his career. Not in the prime of his career, winning them against one of the GOATs. You've lost common sense when you say Eli and Plunkett are "basically mirror images"...outside of the #ringz, there is no comparison.

The numbers are nearly identical.

YPA: 104
Comp%: 96
QB Rating: 98
TD%: 103
INT%: 94

Manning
YPA: 101
Comp%: 93
QB Rating: 97
TD%: 105
INT%: 93

Two Super Bowls, mediocre overall numbers, both struggled early on for a few years.

[Maynard]

I already explained why his numbers you keep touting aren't very impressive.

I also made a very long, very well thought out & researched post supporting my opinion.

Let's try this again: http://www.virtualsportsnetwork.com/...=1#post2361029

Winning 2 SB's doesn't mean "nothing", but it's not enough when overall he just isn't very good. Like Jim Plunkett, who I would argue was no worse than Manning and stacks up very well.

I'd post the stats, but you wouldn't understand them.

if you are so hell bent against the SB argument then why are you so hung up on the stats argument?

he has 2 SB wins, an 8-3 playoff record, his stats are HOF worthy and he has so many CLUTCH performances. you seem to forget that his game performances is what really makes him a HOF player

[Warner2BruceTD]

There are seven QBs that will go to the Hall of Fame from this era...it includes Eli. He and Roethlisberger have essentially the same resume going in...if you "wouldn't gripe if someone did (vote for Roethlisberger in the Hall of Fame)." the only conclusion I can draw is you have an incredible bias against Eli Manning.

Ben's numbers smoke Eli. Crush him, in fact.

I can see a Ben angle, he's been at times an elite guy, Eli never was.

Again, I wouldn't vote for either. Ben is close, but Eli would be the worst QB in the building if he got in.

[Warner2BruceTD]

if you are so hell bent against the SB argument then why are you so hung up on the stats argument?

he has 2 SB wins, an 8-3 playoff record, his stats are HOF worthy and he has so many CLUTCH performances. you seem to forget that his game performances is what really makes him a HOF player

His stats are not even close to HOF worthy.

I need more than the super simplistic, mindless, "two rings" argument to sway me. There is literally nothing else HOF worthy about him.

If David Tyree doesn't catch a hail mary on the side of his head we arent even discussing this. Which is why it's so stupid.

[Maynard]

His stats are not even close to HOF worthy.

I need more than the super simplistic, mindless, "two rings" argument to sway me. There is literally nothing else HOF worthy about him.

If David Tyree doesn't catch a hail mary on the side of his head we arent even discussing this. Which is why it's so stupid.

but he did catch it. and im not trying to sway you. you can have your opinion.

answer this. if Eli retired today...would the voters vote him in?

[Warner2BruceTD]

but he did catch it. and im not trying to sway you. you can have your opinion.

answer this. if Eli retired today...would the voters vote him in?

I don't know. The two rings will get him instant votes from some, and others will recognize that he isn't a great player overall.

The good thing about the football HOF is that they get in a room and argue about it like we are doing. Baseball doesn't do that.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Here is my post from a few pages back explaining adjusted QB numbers. It's really the only way to compare QB's across eras as raw numbers are going to mean very different things, even comparing 8 or 10 years ago to today:

Except we can!

There are stats that normalize numbers based on the offensive environment of the era.

And even when adjusted for the increased offense, Manning absolutely smokes a guy like Elway so convincingly that the only way to formulate a pro argument for Elway against Manning is anecdotal fuzzy memory bullshit.

I'm going to attempt to explain this, but i'm probably wasting my time, since it's hard enough to get baseball fans to understand shit like this, and baseball fans compared to NFL fans in terms of sophistication is like comparing modern man to neanderthals.

100 is average. 110 would be 10% better than your peers. 90 would be 10% worse than your peers. The same as OPS+ or ERA+ in baseball.

We'll stick with the basics, but even the others don't look good for Elway, so let's quit while we're ahead:

ELWAY
Yards per Att: 104
Comp%: 101
TD%:102
INT%: 107
QB rating: 105

Manning
Yards per Attempt: 115
Comp %: 120
TD%: 120
INT%: 108
QB rating: 120

Again, these numbers are normalized so you can compare across eras. The work is done for you.

Manning smokes Elway in the regular season to the point it's a squash match, and he has better overall playoff numbers no matter what myths people tell you.

So if your argument is Elway > Manning, you are basing it on 2-5 in the Super Bowl vs 1-1 the Super Bowl. Let's be more sophisticated that that.

[MrBill]

You're dumb as fuck.

oh i get what they mean dumbass....they mean shit to me though

Watch the personal attacks. This is not the Locker Room.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Ben's numbers smoke Eli. Crush him, in fact.

I can see a Ben angle, he's been at times an elite guy, Eli never was.

Again, I wouldn't vote for either. Ben is close, but Eli would be the worst QB in the building if he got in.

I could count the number of people that have a Hall vote on one hand that use advanced numbers. With that said, his 2013 dropped most of his advanced numbers below average, when before this season, they were above it. I wouldn't even consider those numbers until his career is over. If he balls out next year, his advanced numbers will normalize and all of a sudden he's back in the picture? Stop.

Pro Bowls, 3 to 2 (neither have been an All-Pro, neither will be All-Decade)
Passing Yards will be nearly identical, as will touchdowns. Eli will throw more picks, but you overrate the significance of interceptions...TONS of Hall of Fame QBs have huge pick numbers. Nobody cares.
Both have two rings...both are superior payoff performers (both much better than their shoe in contemporaries).

Only five players have won TWO Super Bowl MVPs (Bradshaw, Montana, Starr, Brady...and Manning...the first four are shoe in HoF'rs). He has more yards than anyone who entered the league after 2000 (Brady and Brees, HoF'rs).

You are defying a shit load of common sense and logic with Manning. Too many numbers point to him as an easy shoe in playing with house money. Nevermind that he will probably play until he's 40 surpassing any and all projected career numbers...with time to still add ANOTHER Super Bowl (maybe) and some regular season hardware as well as improve upon his normalized career numbers which have been skewed after a really shitty season.

[Hasselbeck]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha .

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

God, the Elway revisionist history is the worst.

Elway played arguably the two worst SB games in history, then a couple of years later did absolutely nothing in an embarrassing performance in an AFC Championship game at Buffalo that the Bills tried to hand them on a silver platter (10-7 final).

Even in the first SB win, Elway was a 50 year old glorified game manager by that point, and did not play well at all. He had five shots at the SB, and never had a great game. His career TD/INT is 3/8 in the SB.

Nothing makes people's memories shorter than winning some RINGZ. Manning's career playoff numbers smoke Elway. His rating is 10 points higher, and people tear Manning apart for his low postseason QB rating.

You can be critical of Manning's playoff performance if you want, but enough of this Elway revisionist history bullshit. Dude choked in the playoffs on a consistent basis and doesn't have as many great playoff performances as "the guy who pisses down his leg".

Can we stop pretending Elway was some god like playoff performer?

So much truth. Before Terrell Davis came along, Elway was seen as that era's big time choker on the big stage.

[ram29jackson]

I don't care about winning the two SB's, the entire theme here is that I think Super Bowl performance is overrated.

LOL @ monster stats.

Eli Manning has a lower career QB rating (81.2) than Jason Campbell, Jake Delhomme, Shaun Hill, David Garrard, Matt Schaub, and a bunch of other guys who will never sniff the HOF, and many of whom could not hold starting jobs.

Manning's adjusted statistics show that he is basically an average QB compared to his peers:

Yard per Attempt: 101
Comp%: 93
QB Rating: 97

So where are these "monster" stats? He's 1% better than average against his peers in YPA, and worse than average in two other key areas. He also sports one of the highest INT%'s of his era. You could actually make a case that overall his stats are below average compared to his peers. He's Exhibit A of inflated numbers that are really unimpressive when stacked against his own era.

He has never led the league in anything aside from interceptions (three times). He's no better than someone like Jay Cutler, and significantly worse than Philip Rivers. Are you putting them in the HOF? Of course not.

He's never been considered the best QB in the league, never top 3, never top 5, and usually borderline top 10.

What on his resume suggests he's a HOF aside from the derpy TWO RINGZ argument? There is nothing there. He's average in every way.

I won't even address the Kurt Warner comparison that you keep making, because it's not even worth my time and shows how clueless you are.

Eli has 2 SB victories and playoff victories with highlight passes that will never die. He has a brother named Peyton. It might be 10 year or so but he will get in the HOF...he is a NY Giants QB= he will get in=he beat Tom Brady twice= he will get in

[ram29jackson]

Can we stop pretending Elway was some god like playoff performer?

he is in the hall of fame and they show his drive against Cleveland a million times a year on the NFL network

[Maynard]

Eli has 2 SB victories and playoff victories with highlight passes that will never die. He has a brother named Peyton. It might be 10 year or so but he will get in the HOF...he is a NY Giants QB= he will get in=he beat Tom Brady twice= he will get in

figures, rams thinks he is a HOfer....i guess i was wrong.

rams thinks trent difer is an elite QB

[Hasselbeck]

LOL average QBs don't have 2 super bowl rings as a starter. You don't make clutch throws that often being average. Quite frankly he has done enough to get in simply because his brother will pull a few strings and make it happen anyway. Its just as much a popularity contest as anything else and the league will want their combined story to live a long time

If Asante Samuel doesn't drop a pick.. Eli isn't sniffing this conversation.

If Tom Brady doesn't overthrow a WIDE open Wes Welker.. Eli isn't sniffing this conversation.

Yes, Eli has 2 rings.. and thats great.. but he was also two plays away from having 0 while giving Tom Brady 2 additional rings to what he already has.

That's the crux of W2B's argument here. If you strip away the 2 championships and look at the rest of his body of work.. hes pretty much what he is.. a QB that will get yards and make a bunch of jaw dropping mistakes.