UFC 98: Machida vs Evans

[Steel Mamba]

so about that machida

looked pretty good

trying to end the 8 page p4p rankings bitchfest/. this is why p4p rankings are so stupid. no one is ever going to agree. its pointless

lol - its all cool until it breaks down into "you can't read", "no, no, you can't read" type banter then it just gets annoying.

[Liquidrob]

wait, so guys who never competed at the higher level of MMA striking (K1) are better than Cro Cop, Semmt and Hunt? or have trained boxing like AA with freddie Roach, yeah that sounds about right

also, where are these strikers that Silva and Machida have out classed, Franklin? Leben? Thiago Silva, please come back stronger than that

Silva was mounted by Travis Lutter, subbed by B level fighters but no one can handle him on the ground, sounds about right, lol

Every arguement you use against Fedor makes it worse for Machida and Silva, ou say he doesnt face great technical strikers, but he has faced better strikers than both, you say Silva cant be handled on the ground but has been mounted and subbed by lower level fighters, I think those guys have just as many holes as you say Fedor has

AA > any boxer type Silva or Machida has faced
Cro Cop > Any kickboxer Silva or Machida has faced
Same with Hunt and Semmy

Mark Coleman > any wrestler those 2 have faced

Nog and Arona > Any grappler those 2 have faced

[Liquidrob]

also, I'm still waiting for the list of 'technical' strikers Silva and Machida have beat, can you give me a name or 2? please?

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

Fedor, AA, Barnett and even Tim are elite, only HW they have that was elite is Nog, he is a shell of his former self and took 1 to many beatings from Fedor and others, he is now Zombie Nog

It never ceases to amaze me how guys suddenly become elite once they leave UFC for you. Guys who come in suddenly arent.

It would make your arguments alot more valid if you can get rid of the blatant UFC hatred.:pissed:


Anyways...
HW is a really shallow pool of talent. You can bunch them all up and its still pretty drab.
Barnett isnt impressive , AA/Sylvia have soft jaws , Couture aged REALLY fast , Big Nog is a shell of his former self , Mir is "good" at best. Overeem lost 4 out of his last 5 in Pride no reason for me to think hes going to beat HWs. Hed have to pass several roid tests to maintain that 255 frame we've seen.

The only guys worth talking about are

Fedor --because hes the greatest p4p fighter of our lifetimes and currently ,by a clear mile despite what some of you fools are hallucinating.

Brock-- Because hes a damn animal. A skilled seasoned Brock is going to be interesting matchup for anyone.

Carwin -- Only because hes an undefeated beast of a guy.

Everyone else has glaring recent losses and weaknesses or are just flat out on the downside of there career,

HW is really deep , but nowhere near as talented as its being made out to be. Its all about Fedor and what young guy can step up and clean up the old guard. Its barely more interesting than 185 at this point. No way any fighter outside of Fedor/Silva* deserve P4P regards in those weight classes.



**If Cung Le decides to fight more than every other leap year hed get top 10 consideration.



FWIW after his 2 recent dysmal performances Id put GSP over Silva.
GSP has a glaring GLARING loss. But Silva 2 consecutive fights failing to dismantle clearly outmatched opponents drops him that hair.

[Liquidrob]

It never ceases to amaze me how guys suddenly become elite once they leave UFC for you. Guys who come in suddenly arent.

It would make your arguments alot more valid if you can get rid of the blatant UFC hatred.:pissed:

lol, I 'hate' the UFC so much that 4 out of my top 5 fighters are all in the UFC, only non UFC fighter crack my top 5 is fedor and probably maybe only 1 other in my top 10, the UFC has the best fighters across all divisions hands down, but not at HW

Barnett left the UFC as the HW champ and has always been elite and is 24-5 and ranked top 2-5 by everyone

AA left the UFC on a 3 fight win streak (when does that happen? lol) and is as good or better than any UFC HW, you think Frank Mir has a chance against AA? He is easily right in the title picture, Brock and AA would be a great fight

Tim left the UFC with a win also and is 24-5, he is a boring goofball but he wins, plain and simple, his only losses have been to Fedor, Nog, AA and Randy

All these 'UFC rejects' left with wins, funny how the UFC brain washes people about ex-fighters

[Liquidrob]

Everyone else has glaring recent losses and weaknesses or are just flat out on the downside of there career

you can say that about the LHW division in the UFC, only Machida doesnt have a loss, everyone else has beat each other up and its 1 of the UFC's best divisions

[The Buddha]

only "techincal" Strikers on Machida's resume are Penn, Franklin and Bonnar...


Only Penn would be considered Technical i think.


All of these took place, '03-'04

[EmpireWF]

Since when is Tim Sylvia an elite heavyweight? lmao

If you want to talk about 'elite' heavyweights these days besides Fedor...I'll give you Barnett (although I think that can be arguable)....but you gotta give me Brock. Sure the man has only three pro fights...but he's a beast who has only looked bad for the seconds he was caught in the sub.

If you want to say that Big Nog is shot now, I would disagree but I can see the argument.

Mir looks good, is one of the most dangerous heavyweights on the ground and is a solid stand-up fighter. If you don't consider him an elite heavy, alright, I can see how he still has what to prove (only if you consider Nog to be shot).

Is Arlovski shot? The man has no chin whatsoever...sure his boxing game may be the best of any heavyweight, but what good is it if he can't take a punch?

The UFC heavyweight division is still damn good....who cares if they are older or not in their primes (Randy, Nog), I would pay to see them fight.

I will love watching Arlovski fight in Strikeforce, but I'm not missing him in the UFC...although he would pose an interesting match-up to Brock.

[Steel Mamba]

wait, so guys who never competed at the higher level of MMA striking (K1) are better than Cro Cop, Semmt and Hunt? or have trained boxing like AA with freddie Roach, yeah that sounds about right

also, where are these strikers that Silva and Machida have out classed, Franklin? Leben? Thiago Silva, please come back stronger than that

Silva was mounted by Travis Lutter, subbed by B level fighters but no one can handle him on the ground, sounds about right, lol

Every arguement you use against Fedor makes it worse for Machida and Silva, ou say he doesnt face great technical strikers, but he has faced better strikers than both, you say Silva cant be handled on the ground but has been mounted and subbed by lower level fighters, I think those guys have just as many holes as you say Fedor has

AA > any boxer type Silva or Machida has faced
Cro Cop > Any kickboxer Silva or Machida has faced
Same with Hunt and Semmy

Mark Coleman > any wrestler those 2 have faced

Nog and Arona > Any grappler those 2 have faced

Of course AA is a great striker and he has faced Fedor, so I didn't include him in that list. What does Anderson Silva fighting strikers have to do with anything? The difference is we know Silva is a capable and technical striker, so I don't need to see him face the worlds best strikers. It's like saying that Reggie Miller needs to compete in a 3-point contest, for what he has nothing to prove, we already know his 3 pointer is money. What strikers out there would be a favorite over Anderson? Not many right.

Now, you can say that he needs to fight more ground guys, that would make sense. Same with Machida, but strikers, that's irrelevant to the point.

But anyway being succesful in K1 doesn't always mean that you're going to be a great or technical striker in MMA. Mark Hunt charged in way too often leaving his chin exposed, and swung wildly at times. He was not a very technical striker, he had good/fast feet for his size, but other than that his standup game wasn't too impressive.

Cro Cop was not at all good at controlling the ring and his hands weren't great either. He has the best kicks I've ever seen, but his overall standup wasn't great.

Semmy, guys always just take him down right away and his takedown defense is pretty poor. When he is standing given his reach he should be a lot better than he is, so he doesn't compare to a lot of the guys that I listed.


Forget all of that though, let's break it down like this. Silva vs Fedor skill for skill, resumes aside:

Striking - Anderson Silva
Accuracy - Anderson Silva
Wrestling - Fedor
BJJ/Subs - Fedor, pretty slick for a big guy, but again Silva is still no slouch on the ground either.
Speed (relative) - I think Fedor is more heavy handed than quick, I could probably list more HW fighters that are faster than Fedor than I could list MW fighters who are faster than Silva.
Footwork - Anderson Silva
Power - Fedor

Maybe I'm jumping the gun on Machida, but I don't see why it's such a stretch that I like Silva over Fedor.

[CrimsonGhost56]

dont forget mirko is back in the ufc. time to see if he can turn into the old crocop. if he can i can see him heading to the top of the division and getting a title shot.

[Liquidrob]

Since when is Tim Sylvia an elite heavyweight? lmao

If you want to talk about 'elite' heavyweights these days besides Fedor...I'll give you Barnett (although I think that can be arguable)....but you gotta give me Brock. Sure the man has only three pro fights...but he's a beast who has only looked bad for the seconds he was caught in the sub.

If you want to say that Big Nog is shot now, I would disagree but I can see the argument.

Mir looks good, is one of the most dangerous heavyweights on the ground and is a solid stand-up fighter. If you don't consider him an elite heavy, alright, I can see how he still has what to prove (only if you consider Nog to be shot).

Is Arlovski shot? The man has no chin whatsoever...sure his boxing game may be the best of any heavyweight, but what good is it if he can't take a punch?

The UFC heavyweight division is still damn good....who cares if they are older or not in their primes (Randy, Nog), I would pay to see them fight.

I will love watching Arlovski fight in Strikeforce, but I'm not missing him in the UFC...although he would pose an interesting match-up to Brock.

Tim was the best UFC HW along with AA for about 3 years, he has only lost to the best of the best, Brock Lesner is 2-1 in the UFC and you want to call him elite?

What happened to actually winning fights to be considered elite?

So a guy who is 24-5 and a multiple time champ is not elite but a who beat Heath and Randy after a 11 month lay off is?

[Steel Mamba]

Rob showed no love for Sylvia until Fedor beat him, lol.

[Liquidrob]

Rob showed no love for Sylvia until Fedor beat him, lol.

I still dont like Tim, never have, but he won fights and those are facts, just like Sherk in his lay and pray days, but doesnt mean I like to watch them now, I would pass of there fights unless they fight someone good

[CrimsonGhost56]

is big timmy still a top heavy? i dont really see it. he sports an impressive record and has held the belt but hasnt been that great recently even in his victories. in the past three years what victory has stood out besides AA? a win is a win but theres a difference between finishing someone and going the distance most of the time in snoozers.

Loss Fedor Emelianenko Submission (Rear-Naked Choke) Affliction - Banned 7/19/2008 1 0:36
Loss Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira Submission (Guillotine Choke) UFC 81 - Breaking Point 2/2/2008 3 1:28
Win Brandon Vera Decision (Unanimous) UFC 77 - Hostile Territory 10/20/2007 3 5:00
Loss Randy Couture Decision (Unanimous) UFC 68 - Uprising 3/3/2007 5 5:00
Win Jeff Monson Decision (Unanimous) UFC 65 - Bad Intentions 11/18/2006 5 5:00
Win Andrei Arlovski Decision (Unanimous) UFC 61 - Bitter Rivals 7/8/2006 5 5:00
Win Andrei Arlovski TKO (Punches) UFC 59 - Reality Check 4/15/2006 1 2:43
Win Assuerio Silva Decision (Unaminous) UFC - Ultimate Fight Night 3 1/16/2006 3 5:00

[Liquidrob]

Of course AA is a great striker and he has faced Fedor, so I didn't include him in that list. What does Anderson Silva fighting strikers have to do with anything? The difference is we know Silva is a capable and technical striker, so I don't need to see him face the worlds best strikers. It's like saying that Reggie Miller needs to compete in a 3-point contest, for what he has nothing to prove, we already know his 3 pointer is money. What strikers out there would be a favorite over Anderson? Not many right.

Now, you can say that he needs to fight more ground guys, that would make sense. Same with Machida, but strikers, that's irrelevant to the point.

But anyway being succesful in K1 doesn't always mean that you're going to be a great or technical striker in MMA. Mark Hunt charged in way too often leaving his chin exposed, and swung wildly at times. He was not a very technical striker, he had good/fast feet for his size, but other than that his standup game wasn't too impressive.

Cro Cop was not at all good at controlling the ring and his hands weren't great either. He has the best kicks I've ever seen, but his overall standup wasn't great.

Semmy, guys always just take him down right away and his takedown defense is pretty poor. When he is standing given his reach he should be a lot better than he is, so he doesn't compare to a lot of the guys that I listed.


Forget all of that though, let's break it down like this. Silva vs Fedor skill for skill, resumes aside:

Striking - Anderson Silva
Accuracy - Anderson Silva
Wrestling - Fedor
BJJ/Subs - Fedor, pretty slick for a big guy, but again Silva is still no slouch on the ground either.
Speed (relative) - I think Fedor is more heavy handed than quick, I could probably list more HW fighters that are faster than Fedor than I could list MW fighters who are faster than Silva.
Footwork - Anderson Silva
Power - Fedor

Maybe I'm jumping the gun on Machida, but I don't see why it's such a stretch that I like Silva over Fedor.

It is relevent for them to beat some top level stikers if you want to say they are great strikers, Silva has fought kickboxing and lost against Pele, has fought boxing and hasnt done that well, he looks pretty when he fights guys he is way better than, but until he beats some top flight strikers you cant really tell

Like Sherk, pretty on the pads, never does well striking in fights, BJ boxed him up with just a jab and a little reach, I wouldnt call Sherk an elite striker

Silva and Machida seem to be great MMA strikers, but they havent done it against top strikers yet

You say Fedor isnt a great striker but has KO'ed 1 of the best technical boxers in MMA and took it to K1 level strikers, something neither Silva or Machida has done