The General Wrestling Thread

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Madden speaking the truth.

Sounds a lot like the podcast we did a couple of days ago.

I'm sure AJ is a nice girl, but she is killing the show and needs to go to the mid card where she belongs.

AJ is a fine piece to use in a main event storyline...sometimes, they are good catalysts.

But, as I've mentioned before...they, instead of using her in a simple, non-invasive way, they basically have her doing a full court press on television...she's the #1.

Seriously, you know what made the Mega Powers Explode angle work...it wasn't Hogan or Liz...it was Mach, he was the character arc, you know, basic storytelling, the 101 level stuff...but Liz was a catalyst for it...like Mach said in the go-home promo...he wasn't #3 in the Mega Powers...he was #1...not Liz...in this feud here, AJ is number one and both guys treat her as the number one...its brutal. They had a glimmer of hope of turning this angle around when AJ was going to jump off the top through the table to get attention...you had Punk and Danielson wrestling and not paying attention...but then they get involved it goes to shit.

This feud should have ended at No Way Out at the latest...AJ helps Bryan become the champ and now the heel champ, with his girl, who is also a heel are chased by the face...if you want to do a subtle AJ face turn to eventually give Punk back the title...fine, its sports entertainment...but they've even fucked up their sports entertainment storyline up.

The WWE writers don't even use 101 level writing and story telling...who has a character arc in the WWE?

The last story arc was Cena v. The Rock...it should have been the eventually heel turn, or at least, more edgy and pissed off Cena...but they dropped that...once they had him beat Lesnar, the character arc just dropped off a cliff.

[JimLeavy59]

AJ is a fine piece to use in a main event storyline...sometimes, they are good catalysts.

But, as I've mentioned before...they, instead of using her in a simple, non-invasive way, they basically have her doing a full court press on television...she's the #1.

Seriously, you know what made the Mega Powers Explode angle work...it wasn't Hogan or Liz...it was Mach, he was the character arc, you know, basic storytelling, the 101 level stuff...but Liz was a catalyst for it...like Mach said in the go-home promo...he wasn't #3 in the Mega Powers...he was #1...not Liz...in this feud here, AJ is number one and both guys treat her as the number one...its brutal. They had a glimmer of hope of turning this angle around when AJ was going to jump off the top through the table to get attention...you had Punk and Danielson wrestling and not paying attention...but then they get involved it goes to shit.

This feud should have ended at No Way Out at the latest...AJ helps Bryan become the champ and now the heel champ, with his girl, who is also a heel are chased by the face...if you want to do a subtle AJ face turn to eventually give Punk back the title...fine, its sports entertainment...but they've even fucked up their sports entertainment storyline up.

The WWE writers don't even use 101 level writing and story telling...who has a character arc in the WWE?

The last story arc was Cena v. The Rock...it should have been the eventually heel turn, or at least, more edgy and pissed off Cena...but they dropped that...once they had him beat Lesnar, the character arc just dropped off a cliff.

The better arc would have been Cena losing to Lesnar and being gone for a few months until Summerslam, During that you have Lesnar run through the WWE taking everyone out. No Way Out you have Punk drop the title to Lesnar and you make Lesnar a true monster heel than Cena comes back as a tweener basically almost Dark Knightish in a way Cena finally becoming the man he vowed to never become and have him go over on Lesnar. I think that would have been great tv.

[Warner2BruceTD]

LOL@character arcs. That implies that they think this shit ahead more than two weeks at a time. You are so right.

The only person in North American wrestling that does long term character arcs is Gabe Sapolsky, but there are like 500 people watching, and half the time he gets screwed because his talent gets signed by WWE or TNA before the story is told.

I won't even give TNA credit for the absolutely tremendous Austin Aries story, because that developed organically and he forced their hand. And something tells me the decision to put the belt on him was eleventh hour based on the incredible buzz (to me, this was a case where they shouldn't have given the people what they wanted and instead let him come this fucking close, like Sting in '89 or Barry Windham a million times, but it turned out to be a great moment so fuck it).

ROH is doing the long term thing with Elgin, and did it with Davey & Eddie Edwards, and of course Steen. So I guess they do it, but the product is so boring now that nobody cares.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Why do you think no one cares about the following...

Jack Swagger
Dolph Ziggler
Alberto Del Rio

or, well...ANYONE on the undercard after a quick run down of the roster...

before you answer...tell me this...name an actual character arc any of those guys have been in...

I can not think of a single one where they start a program, actually finish it, and if they do, the heel or face and/or stock of that guy is changed, or, there was a real reason for those guys doing what the did.

There is none. Zero. Zero character change. You couldn't even tell me what their character's motivations are for anything, whether it be a feud or whatever. Nothing. Its all "I don't like you...oh, you don't like me, well, I don't like you either" shit.

Alberto Del Rio is a rich Mexican aristocrat...so? Has he ever used that trait in any storyline, ever? So, why can't he just be Dos Carras Jr. the flame out MMA and former Mexican star...because, that is kind of what he is.

Jack Swagger is dollar store Kurt Angle...ain't never mattered...never been in a storyline that mattered or one that actually...told a story.

[Warner2BruceTD]

The stories run on four week cycles from PPV to PPV.

Did you see that interview that came out a few weeks ago, where a former creative team member (I forget who) said that one time in a creative meeting, somebody spoke up to Vince about some idea that totally contradicted a past storyline, and Vince shot back something to the effect of "I dont remember what happened on RAW last week, do you think people remember what happened two months ago?"

That's really all you need to know as to why this shit sucks most of the time.

[JimLeavy59]

The thing that pisses me off about Cena is when he is getting booed and he does that chessy ass smile and laugh. You know that stuff gets to Cena deep down.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

LOL@character arcs. That implies that they think this shit ahead more than two weeks at a time. You are so right.

The only person in North American wrestling that does long term character arcs is Gabe Sapolsky, but there are like 500 people watching, and half the time he gets screwed because his talent gets signed by WWE or TNA before the story is told.

I won't even give TNA credit for the absolutely tremendous Austin Aries story, because that developed organically and he forced their hand. And something tells me the decision to put the belt on him was eleventh hour based on the incredible buzz (to me, this was a case where they shouldn't have given the people what they wanted and instead let him come this fucking close, like Sting in '89 or Barry Windham a million times, but it turned out to be a great moment so fuck it).

ROH is doing the long term thing with Elgin, and did it with Davey & Eddie Edwards, and of course Steen. So I guess they do it, but the product is so boring now that nobody cares.

ROH does a good job with the arcs, but there is one problem...they let them go on a little TOO long, and it loses its moment. Davey to the title was 6 months too late. Steen was 3-4 months too late. Elgin should be right on the cusp of the face turn now. As in, next PPV, he attempts to destroy Truth Martini and Roddy Strong saves Truth setting up the Elgin/Roddy feud and eventually, you have Elgin win Roddy's title. The simple shit works every time.

RE: Aries...I agree...him coming "this" close to a title win would have been great...but how do you put Roode over? Not clean, that's not his character. Cheat to win? Aries is supposed to be the tweener...if Roode is going to cheat, Aries should know about it and catch him cheating and give the heel his comeuppance. I had no problem just striking now while the iron is hot. It organically just handed itself on a silver platter at the right time...sometimes, you can't overthink something that just gift wraps itself to you.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

The stories run on four week cycles from PPV to PPV.

Did you see that interview that came out a few weeks ago, where a former creative team member (I forget who) said that one time in a creative meeting, somebody spoke up to Vince about some idea that totally contradicted a past storyline, and Vince shot back something to the effect of "I dont remember what happened on RAW last week, do you think people remember what happened two months ago?"

That's really all you need to know as to why this shit sucks most of the time.

brutal.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

The thing that pisses me off about Cena is when he is getting booed and he does that chessy ass smile and laugh. You know that stuff gets to Cena deep down.

Cena eats up the reactions...he doesn't take himself or his character seriously...that by itself is a problem...but he does take his spot seriously like every top guy is does or is supposed to. It made him into a guy that is ambivalent to the crowd but, he's the top guy, so, he doesn't care if you like him or hate him because it doesn't matter anyway, he's still the the top guy.

Instead of "Let's Go Cena"-"Cena Sucks" chants...people need to sit on their hands and not buy his merch...the chants and buying the Cena Sucks shirts only keep him at the top.

[JimLeavy59]

The stories run on four week cycles from PPV to PPV.

Did you see that interview that came out a few weeks ago, where a former creative team member (I forget who) said that one time in a creative meeting, somebody spoke up to Vince about some idea that totally contradicted a past storyline, and Vince shot back something to the effect of "I dont remember what happened on RAW last week, do you think people remember what happened two months ago?"

That's really all you need to know as to why this shit sucks most of the time.

I remember that wasn't that the same guy who almost got into a fight with Vince?

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

RE: the "creative" team...

they aren't wrestling guys...they aren't people that used to watch wrestling as kids or have a diverse palate of watching several wrestling products...they are really bad, and borderline unemployable by any other studio, tv writers. The guys that do know wrestling and wrestling talent...Vince wants nothing to do with them. That is why good ol JR is just some Bells patient to make fun of, Paul Heyman can kick rocks, Dusty Rhodes is down in FCW or something...they got a lot of "producers" who have only worked with the WWE in that kind of regard - I find it hard to believe a talented worker like Arn Anderson or James Gibson could really assemble matches this shitty, but they do unfortunately...their talent relations and "scouts" are poor...notice the lack of new talent...last boost of talent came from the non-Vince or Stephanie touched ECW...IIRC, that was run by Dave Lagana. I mean, X-Pac, sure, I'll take at face value he's got a good mind for the business, but, who is to tell me that X-Pac knows what it takes to be a "guy".

On the note of establishing new talent...you have built in characters with the sons of former stars...Hennig's kid, the Rotundo boys, Steamboat's kid, Vader's kid, lesser extent, Eddie's daughter, Ziggler's brother, Sika's son, etc...and each one of them other than Steamboat's kid has had their identity zapped from them before they even get to the WWE. And you got legit Indy stars with WWE looks like Hero and Claudio and you give them shit. Awful.

Look at the movies WWE Studios produces...you are essentially getting that product (really bad movies) but in wrestling form.

[Warner2BruceTD]

This is fucking awesome, and on par with anything HBO Boxing or UFC has ever done in terms of a hype special. Yes, it's 30 minutes long, but its worth it. At least watch from 12:00 or 13:30 or 22:00.


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[Warner2BruceTD]

On the note of establishing new talent...you have built in characters with the sons of former stars...Hennig's kid, the Rotundo boys, Steamboat's kid, Vader's kid, lesser extent, Eddie's daughter, Ziggler's brother, Sika's son, etc...and each one of them other than Steamboat's kid has had their identity zapped from them before they even get to the WWE. And you got legit Indy stars with WWE looks like Hero and Claudio and you give them shit. Awful.

This kills me. You have all of these people who should be one step ahead, in a business where it's so hard to get over to begin with, and you strip them of that edge and send them back to square one with the rest of the indy geeks. It makes NO FUCKING SENSE!

I mean, call him Joe Hennig and let people think he's a star right off the bat, and if he falls on his face like David Flair, so be it. But why not start them on square two instead of square one?

I have more respect for the over push that people like Greg Gagne and Eric Watts and David Flair and David Sammartino received, because at least there was an attempt to get them over on name value and make a star. Why not take the shortcut that is handed to you? It's mind boggling.

[FedEx227]

Wrote an article about the AJ/Bryan/Punk deal.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1254357-wwe-what-is-the-end-game-for-the-daniel-bryan-cm-punk-and-aj-love-triangle

http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/ (working on a new layout, don't worry)

Another WWE Monday Night Raw is in the books and another show dominated by the presence of AJ Lee. Lee is a great performer, and the storyline features two of the best wrestlers in the world today in CM Punkand Daniel Bryan. I can't help but wonder what's the end game? What's the point of all this?

Over the course of WWE history, storylines with women as the focus haven't moved the ratings. They just haven't. Even in the heyday of Sable in 1998 and 1999, when she was arguably the most prominent sex symbol in wrestling history, her segments still didn't register numbers.

Sure, preteens and adults, alike, loved seeing her wearing a bikini, but never were fans invested in her storylines. There certainly were no pay-per-view buys with the sole intent of seeing something Sable would do.

The fact of the matter was, no matter how many Internet views, no matter what type of mainstream buzz or even how many Playboy Magazines sold, Sable simply didn't mean a thing to the then-WWF's ratings or pay-per-view revenue.

The most recent and most prominent love triangle feud of the last 15 years both ended with less-than-stellar results.

During the summer of 2000, Triple H and Kurt Angle feuded over the love of Stephanie McMahon-Helmsley. Despite, again, featuring two of the best wrestlers in the world, despite rumors of McMahon-Helmsley turning on her husband Triple H, it was all over in a flash. Quietly, Angle lost to Triple H at Unforgiven 2000, and the storyline ended without as much as another mention.

While both workers moved on to even bigger heights the rest of the year and beyond, the angle itself had no payoff whatsoever, and frankly even at the time, nobody cared where McMahon-Helmsley ended up.

In 2005, Matt Hardy and Edge engaged in one of the best feuds in WWE history over Hardy's former girlfriend Lita. While Hardy was rehabbing an injury, Lita found solace on the road in the form of rising star Edge. Once WWE found out about this situation, they did the only logical thing—fired Matt Hardy. No, but seriously, that's what they chose.

Either way, Hardy returned to television in July 2005 and kicked off a blood feud of epic proportions in that it was rooted in reality like few WWE angles before. This supposed love-triangle storyline launched Edge into the top upper echelon of the WWE, but it did little for the career of Hardy, and when it was all said and done, Lita was only a small part of the bigger picture to develop Edge's character.

The feud culminated in a match at SummerSlam 2005, which ended with a whimper, as Edge caused Hardy to bleed, forcing the referee to stop the match. And just like that, the love triangle was over.
Edge was able to parlay the blood feud into a main-event spot, but that was more about Edge finally getting TV time and becoming much more improved on the microphone. Hardy quietly retreated to the SmackDown brand and never found his stride again.

Fast forward back to today's current love triangle, and while the storyline hasn't been awful, I'm just confused as to the overall benefit.

It's been built quite well, AJ is great in the role, Bryan and Punk are elite wrestlers in the world, but at the end of the day, what does an angle with a woman as the focal point mean for the WWE?

Raw ratings have been up in the past weeks including a 3.2 for Monday's show—a great rating given competition from MLB's Home Run Derby. It's presumption to assume AJ is the reason for the spike in ratings, but she certainly hasn't turned people away.

Despite this, I still worry about the long-term ramifications of the angle. I'm having issue figuring out where anyone benefits. If she screws Bryan and goes with CM Punk, is Punk now a heel? Does Bryan become a babyface? Does she just go with Punk, and they both are face? Then, you end up in a scenario where Bryan looks like a fool.

The most ideal scenario in my mind, is screwing over Punk to go with Bryan. This way, Bryan maintains his top heel status along with a woman who didn't stand up for herself and went back with the man who treated her poorly. While this isn't the most idealistic role for AJ, it's the best for wrestling purposes. This scenario begs the question of what the past four months were for, though, as this scenario was already playing out on television.

The last is she ends up with neither of the men and is placed with a dark horse likeKane or just ends up by herself. This is another scenario that's not awful, but essentially, accomplishes nothing. Sure, we have seen some great television and pay-per-view matches with Bryan and Punk, but we would've gotten those too without having to sit through 20-minute segments of AJ.

I'll give the WWE credit for putting Bryan and Punk in a main-event storyline, but I can't help but notice them not being the focus. The more and more AJ takes TV time, the less this entire feud helps Bryan and Punk.

Instead of building up two of the top young stars in the business, WWE seems more interested in letting a Days of Our Lives' storyline play out and have people guessing each week where the crazy, but lovely, AJ will end up.

Why can't this feud be about who's the best in the world? Why can't fans just take enjoyment in seeing two of the best wrestlers in the world battle on pay-per-view?

I'll have to let this angle play out before I can say for sure, but looking at the possible endings, I don't see how this ends up benefiting anyone in the long run.

I don't believe Bryan or Punk are going to become bigger stars when the angle wraps up. All I can really see is AJ becoming a larger on-screen character temporarily. This also begs the question of benefit as AJ isn't a strong in-ring performer and has had little-to-no interaction with the rest of the Divas' division.

Wait and see I suppose, but I can't help but question the ending

[JimLeavy59]

They aren't taking the belt off Punk.