The General Wrestling Thread

[s@ppisgod]

Didn't include Sting as with the recent rumors, he's all but a given anymore.

[Warner2BruceTD]

What's different about luchas today? Guys like Mysterio, Psychosis, Juvy, etc made the transition and looked good and worked with the lower card gringos fine in WCW. But since then, there seems to be no pipeline between the luchas and bigger American promotions. With the exception of Sin Cara, who flopped hard.

Well, the lucha boom happened in 1994 with AAA, when all of those guys you mentioned plus a few others were young and coming up at the same time. So WCW took a chance on something that was hot, and those guys were super talented and it worked. Mostly because WCW let them work their style.

WWE tried to copy, not many people remember, but they had the Super Astros show that bombed, because they filmed it in front of RAW crowds at tapings in front of people who didn't treat them like stars because they didn't now who they were. So of course, "they cant work", etc. This is Vince we're talking about, so forget just letting them work their style. He wanted to unmask El Hijo Del Santo, for fucks sake. Talk about not understanding the culture.

And remember, it took Rey a while to get into the WWE. It took Vince YEARS to accept the fact he was a legit star, even when he was drawing money for him. But you are talking about a guy who is elite level charisma & talent, who is an American who speaks English and understands American style wrestling psychology.

So when guys come from Mexico now, they have a million things working against them. The psychology is massively different. Turn on lucha one weekend and watch for a few minutes. The way they sell, everything is different. Plus they work the right side of the body, and in the rest of the world you work the left side. So that's a big switch, you have to unlearn years of habits. Plus, if you don't speak English, forget it. Another massive barrier. How many Mexicans succeded since Mil Mascaras while not speaking English? Psicosis? Only because he was Rey's base. La Parka is a god dam charisma machine and a legit mega star in Mexico, and he couldn't even get any traction here.

[s@ppisgod]

Mysterio is an American. He's a true outlier. Same with Eddie, for example. They both spoke great English.

Alberto Del Rio is a real Mexican...but again, speaks great English.

The other guys...they didn't speak very good English and also got their start in the US in a totally different landscape. They were slow to warm. They debuted in ECW where...who cared about their ability to talk? They just featured their in-ring work. For the most part, same in WCW. Throw in characters like LA Parka in there, too, but he was obviously more charismatic.

In the WWE though, its imperative you talk...unless you're The Undertaker or Brock Lesnar or something. If you can't, you're way behind. Sin Cara's whole gimmick revolves around not being able to talk, but his charisma just does not translate at all in the States. The Great Khali barely speaks audible English, but he's 7'10" and quickly dissolved into a comedy act...so, it works for him. But if you're a 5'4" flippy spic...what is the WWE going to do with you, really?

Isn't there a spot of Main Event for a short lucha to work a nice lite spot-fest with Kofi or Gabriel or Primo/Epico and sell a few masks? Hell, they found time for Yoshi Tatsu in a similar role not too long ago sans mask.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Isn't there a spot of Main Event for a short lucha to work a nice lite spot-fest with Kofi or Gabriel or Primo/Epico and sell a few masks? Hell, they found time for Yoshi Tatsu in a similar role not too long ago sans mask.

That is pretty much where Sin Cara is working these days. They'll have him flip around with Jack Swagger, Wade Barrett, Antonio Cesaro, etc for 10 minutes on Main Event.

Plus, they have some other flippy fucks coming through developmental that will soon make Sin Cara unneeded, especially for the size of the contract he is sure to have.

[s@ppisgod]

Well, the lucha boom happened in 1994 with AAA, when all of those guys you mentioned plus a few others were young and coming up at the same time. So WCW took a chance on something that was hot, and those guys were super talented and it worked. Mostly because WCW let them work their style.

WWE tried to copy, not many people remember, but they had the Super Astros show that bombed, because they filmed it in front of RAW crowds at tapings in front of people who didn't treat them like stars because they didn't now who they were. So of course, "they cant work", etc. This is Vince we're talking about, so forget just letting them work their style. He wanted to unmask El Hijo Del Santo, for fucks sake. Talk about not understanding the culture.

And remember, it took Rey a while to get into the WWE. It took Vince YEARS to accept the fact he was a legit star, even when he was drawing money for him. But you are talking about a guy who is elite level charisma & talent, who is an American who speaks English and understands American style wrestling psychology.

So when guys come from Mexico now, they have a million things working against them. The psychology is massively different. Turn on lucha one weekend and watch for a few minutes. The way they sell, everything is different. Plus they work the right side of the body, and in the rest of the world you work the left side. So that's a big switch, you have to unlearn years of habits. Plus, if you don't speak English, forget it. Another massive barrier. How many Mexicans succeded since Mil Mascaras while not speaking English? Psicosis? Only because he was Rey's base. La Parka is a god dam charisma machine and a legit mega star in Mexico, and he couldn't even get any traction here.

Yes, but with their developmental being as big and strong and healthy as ever, why not try and tap into Mexico's talent? They clearly have time to be patient, and are being plenty so with many of their developmental roster. There's plenty of athletic guys with loads of in-ring talent down there, who could spend 2-3 years learning to work a more American-friendly style and speak quasi-passable English.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Why bring in a flippy Mexican that can't speak English when you can go out and sign Pac or you can go out and sign Ricochet? There are plenty of Americans who can work what the WWE sees as a "lucha" style or flippy bastard and you don't have the language barrier.

Who down in Mexico right now could come up into the WWE and even with 2-3 years of development (and rarely anyone gets that much time...3 years is a LONG time...Hero has been in developmental like a year and a half and that's a long time for someone to be in developmental). Mexico has some really good workers, but which of them could the WWE really make money off of?

[Warner2BruceTD]

Yes, but with their developmental being as big and strong and healthy as ever, why not try and tap into Mexico's talent? They clearly have time to be patient, and are being plenty so with many of their developmental roster. There's plenty of athletic guys with loads of in-ring talent down there, who could spend 2-3 years learning to work a more American-friendly style and speak quasi-passable English.

I don't disagree with you, but with the way they treat these guys when they sign them, there is no point. By the time they strip them down and pound it into them that they don't know how to work, these guys lose confidence and are a shell of themselves.

I think part of what killed Sin Cara was that they guy was clearly nervous and was shitting his pants every time out. Probably because he was told don't do this, don't do that, you don't know how to sell, etc.

If i'm hiring La Sombra, who is 23, tall, has a great body, and is every bit as athletic as Sin Cara, i'm telling him to not change a fucking thing. Go be La Sombra. Over time, he'll adjust as needed. Dolike WCW did and hire a handful and let them work exclusively with each other until they adjust.

But it will never happen. They'd probably take his mask off immediately. Then eliminate half his moveset. Then break him down until he lost his mojo. At that point, you might as well have just hired a white guy who was half as talented, because that's what you end up with.

They should stick with Americans & Euros.

[Warner2BruceTD]

LOL

http://www.wrestlingforum.com/suggestions-help/893985-tna-section.html

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

To be fair, as W2B mentioned...the WWE doesn't sign these guys in bunches to work with each other (remember when they were going to hire Averno to work with him?)...which hurts the guys that can't get past the language barrier and are working with guys that are just not used to that style. There are very few wrestlers in the WWE who could really work with Sin Cara NOW, nevermind when he first showed up.

That is why his first real program came with Chavo...one of the few guys who can speak Spanish...they teamed him with Mysterio, had him with Del Rio and Hunico. Problem is, there aren't enough of them AND there are not enough of them low on the card.

[Warner2BruceTD]

And it didn't help that Chavo was insecure about his spot and sandbagged the poor guy.

Allegedly.

[EmpireWF]

Chavo was a bitch.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Chavo is a real dope.

He had a job for life if he wanted one. He could have been putting over guys, including these lucha dudes, for another decade while collecting a nice paycheck and then settling into a agent or trainer position until he croaked.

Instead, he sandbags Sin Cara, complains about his spot, quits, goes to TNA, talks more shit.

Maybe they'll hire him back, but what a moron.

[s@ppisgod]

LOL

http://www.wrestlingforum.com/sugges...a-section.html

At least someone knows when to call it a day in regards to TNA...

[s@ppisgod]

I don't disagree with you, but with the way they treat these guys when they sign them, there is no point. By the time they strip them down and pound it into them that they don't know how to work, these guys lose confidence and are a shell of themselves.

I think part of what killed Sin Cara was that they guy was clearly nervous and was shitting his pants every time out. Probably because he was told don't do this, don't do that, you don't know how to sell, etc.

If i'm hiring La Sombra, who is 23, tall, has a great body, and is every bit as athletic as Sin Cara, i'm telling him to not change a fucking thing. Go be La Sombra. Over time, he'll adjust as needed. Dolike WCW did and hire a handful and let them work exclusively with each other until they adjust.

But it will never happen. They'd probably take his mask off immediately. Then eliminate half his moveset. Then break him down until he lost his mojo. At that point, you might as well have just hired a white guy who was half as talented, because that's what you end up with.

They should stick with Americans & Euros.

Good post. I agree with all of it. My only idea is that the WWE should be going all Walter White with it and build a far-reaching empire. They already have that, but they could always use more talent, more versatility, and more money from those damn Hispanics. I would say they should raid Japan, too. But there's really good money and respect there, so most guys wouldn't be as easily swayed...

[Warner2BruceTD]

Prior to signing a new contract with TNA, Taz tried very hard to get back in WWE. Specifically, he wanted to return in time for WWE's recent RAW taping from Brooklyn, NY. Taz called several people in WWE, but it soon became obvious that Executive Producer Kevin Dunn had no interest in bringing him back.

During a recent production meeting, WWE EVP Triple H said, "TNA doesn't have anyone we need."

This news article is going around various wrestling forums and almost seems to be an IWC fans wet dream so I thought I might post here to see if there is any truth in this at all. Any views? Maybe Dave could confirm?
---------------------------------

- Triple H called the CM Punk/Paul Heyman segment some of the best promo work in many years. The program is being built with the “big fight feel,” something both Vince McMahon and Heyman love. Hunter is really high up on the realism and feels it shows a side of Punk’s character that hasn’t been seen WWE television. One observer pointed you would have to go back to Punk’s program with Raven in Ring of Honor to know that he really had it in him. While both Vince and Hunter feel Punk plays a better heel in the ring, they are “very happy” with this current direction and feel it’s a completely different kind of babyface.

- Daniel Bryan’s match against Antonio Cesaro was being called a second “Match of the Year” candidate in just as many weeks. Triple H greeted Antonio Cesaro as soon as he got backstage and CM Punk and others gave him an ovation. Many workers were spotted watching the bout on the monitor backstage.

- After the show we’re told Vince McMahon went to Bryan and told him that sometimes it’s “good to be wrong.”

- Triple H “blew a gasket” on Ryback for his botched spot at the end of the match with Daniel Bryan where he was supposed to protect Bryan and catch him then put him through a table. It was seen as “careless and reckless” that Ryback just let Bryan bump to the outside and didn’t know how to improvise after completely botching it. According to a source backstage, Hunter got in Ryback’s face and was screaming “carelessness” at him. Bryan is expected to get x-rays on his collar bone on Tuesday but isn’t believed to be hurt as he worked the dark match main event following the taping. However, it’s worth noting this continues to hurt the stock of Ryback. Not only was Hunter upset with the spot but CM Punk and John Cena were vocal about it as well. Cena is someone that rarely calls out others, so when he does, people listen.

Meltzer posted on his forum RE: all of this stuff:

Taz story not legit.

Others I'll know after TV tonight.