Enough is enough. Peyton Manning is the greatest QB of all time.

[ram29jackson]

This isn't particularly impressive, and certainly not even close to compelling for a hall of fame argument.

Compare him to Philip Rivers & Jay Cutler. Rivers smokes him, Cutler is similar. Hall of Fame? Oh, no magic rings.

CUTLER hasn't made iconic playoff/SB throws = case by case basis

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

CUTLER hasn't made iconic playoff/SB throws = case by case basis

That's my point, man. Eli does have those things. But we really should be more sophisticated in our analysis than that in terms of something like the hall of fame.

We can stop at "Eli made some clutch throws and had two great playoff runs. Nice player." We don't have to turn off our brains and stick him in the hall of fame with the greatest players ever. You can do great things without being a great player.

The Super Bowl has become the most overrated game in all of sports, we place way, way too much emphasis on what it takes to win that game and the forced legacy it creates for people.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I have to go. Woefully behind on work and NYE plans. I will leave you with this:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_active.htm

Scroll down (way down) for Hall of Famer Eli. Scan some of the names ahead of him.

 

[Houston]

:lol:

 

[ram29jackson]

That's my point, man. Eli does have those things. But we really should be more sophisticated in our analysis than that in terms of something like the hall of fame.

We can stop at "Eli made some clutch throws and had two great playoff runs. Nice player." We don't have to turn off our brains and stick him in the hall of fame with the greatest players ever. You can do great things without being a great player.

The Super Bowl has become the most overrated game in all of sports, we place way, way too much emphasis on what it takes to win that game and the forced legacy it creates for people.

but you cant take away playoff accomplishments either = case by case basis. the reason its waited so much is its harder to get there than any sports playoffs and harder to succeed in it. You get one game to prove yourself...not 7 games...it matters..it counts.

Bob Waterfield played 7 years and got in

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WateBo01.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/game_query.cgi?qb=WateBo01&yr=post

 

[Maynard]

how the hell is that guy in the HOF?

 

[Primetime]

Rookie of the year
League MVP
Multiple championships
Led the league in passing twice
1st or 2nd team All-NFL 5 times

Also was a good defensive back, the league's best punter, a kicker and ran the league's best offense for nearly a decade.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

how the hell is that guy in the HOF?

"THAT GUY" is one of the greatest all around players in football history.

Played QB for a team that revolutionized offensive football and held scoring records that held up until the last decade or so, and was simultaneously the best kicker in the league, a very good punter, and a defensive back who had 20 career INT's.

Also a prime example of why normalizing stats is important, because his numbers are better within the context of his era than Eli's. His league leading 81.1 QB rating in 1951 for example was 30% higher than the league average, which at the time was around 64.0. Eli's career QB Rating is a nearly identical 81.2, in an era where the league average is 3% higher.

Waterfield's career QB rating of 61.1 is actually 8% higher than the league average of his day, so even though it's 20 points lower than Eli's career number, he was actually 11% better than Eli vs their own peers.

 

[Maynard]

dam, that guy blows. no way should he be in the hall. and you guys are arguing about manning with a guy like that in the hall....lol

 

[Primetime]

Obvious schtick is obvious.

 

[dell71]

I bleed blue. I've been a Giants fan since before Lawrence Taylor took his first snort of cocaine.

And I'm here to tell you Eli is not a "shoe in playing with house money" when it comes to the HoF. Sure, he "might" get in, but it is no lock. And if it were up to me, he wouldn't, at least based on what he's done to this point.

Exhibit A:
(Advanced Stats in parenthesis where applicable)

Eli Manning
2 SB rings, 2 SB MVPs
Top 10 Pass TD: 7
Top 10 TD%: 5 (105)
Bottom 10 Int: 7
Top 10 Int%: 1 (93)
Top 10 Comp%: 1 (93)
Top 10 Pass Yds: 4
Top 10 Rating: 1 (97)
Top 10 Yds/Att: 4 (101)


Mystery QB:
2 SB rings, 1 SB MVP (DNP - injured in other SB, but set a still standing SB record in his MVP game)
Top 10 Pass TD: 6
Top 10 TD%: 5 (102)
Bottom 10 Int: 3
Top 10 Int%: 5 (109)
Top 10 Comp%: 3 (99)
Top 10 Pass Yds: 4
Top 10 Rating: 5 (105)
Top 10 Yds/Att: 7 (104)

The Mystery QB, who has a resume on par with Eli's is NOT in the HoF. His regular season work is better compared to his peers than Eli's. To give the rings thing some credence, I'll call it a wash based on the fact that The Mystery QB earned one of his rings while nursing an injury. Still, during that season TMQ started 14 games and was the 4th highest rated passer in the league. If you haven't figured out who this guy is click below...

 

Btw, his still standing SB record is for highest completion percentage. Against Elway's Broncos he completed 22 of 25 passes for an amazing 88%.

If Eli is HoF worthy, so is he.

Quick note with regard bringing up QBs from the past who supposedly threw tons of picks, especially if they played before the 1980s: This simply isn't the case for most of the guys mentioned in regards to the era they played in. In the case of Unitas, he consistently threw more TD's than picks (usually a lot more) at a time when the league as a whole was doing the exact opposite. For instance take 1959. He led the league in yards (2899) and threw 32 TD and 14 Int. Even by today's standards that's an enviable TD:Int Ratio, though the yardage seems a bit low. The league as a whole 197 TD and 221 picks, or 36 Int for every 32 TD. The only guys mentioned (I think) that really threw a lot of picks in comparison to his peers were Favre and Bradshaw. Favre took lots of heat for it. Not sure if Bradshaw ever did, but his 4 rings has obscured a lot of his flaws.

 

[Houston]

Maynard is about to crawl into a debate over a mid-century Rams player with Warner and jackson?

:jonesy:

There's no schtick, he's full retard naturally.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Funny thing about the one SB Simms played in, it was against Elway. The Broncos D sucked balls. The only good thing that team had was Elway. Not exactly like facing the 18-0 Patriots was it? Den D was 15th that season, NWE was 4th, with a high powered offense behind it. I do agree that was a near perfect game for Simms, obviously. So I'm not taking anything away from him, it's just not a fair comparison of competition is it? I will say what significantly hurts Simms from ever getting in the HOF was Jeff Hostetler winning a SB in his place. This is a definite problem for Simms supporters.

 

[Maynard]

Maynard is about to crawl into a debate over a mid-century Rams player with Warner and jackson?

:jonesy:

There's no schtick, he's full retard naturally.

this coming from the guy who still thinks we are debating the goat. i have never seen a person go that far to defend his position on a point that isnt being discussed.

i am hoping to see some more bob waterfield stats so we can be sure he is a HOFer

 

[CrimsonGhost56]

i like how these QB threads always turn into Eli debates

cant escape the Elisha :elisha:

 

[dell71]

Funny thing about the one SB Simms played in, it was against Elway. The Broncos D sucked balls. The only good thing that team had was Elway. Not exactly like facing the 18-0 Patriots was it? Den D was 15th that season, NWE was 4th, with a high powered offense behind it. I do agree that was a near perfect game for Simms, obviously. So I'm not taking anything away from him, it's just not a fair comparison of competition is it? I will say what significantly hurts Simms from ever getting in the HOF was Jeff Hostetler winning a SB in his place. This is a definite problem for Simms supporters.

Denver was 15th in points allowed in '86, but 9th in Yards Allowed in '86. They were not this completely inept group that Elway dragged to the SB like everyone thinks. In fact, they were one of the better AFC defenses in the playoffs that year. If we want to still say it wasn't all that impressive then we have to do the same for Eli's 2nd SB. After all, in '11 the Patriots he beat were 31st in yards allowed and 15th in points allowed (during that post-season, he only faced one good defense - SF). Sure, Eli made that one magical throw down the sideline, but it wasn't exactly an elite defense. So now we're back to putting in Eli in on the basis of 1 game? I'll even give you 4 games if you want to count that whole post-season as a magical run.

Thing is, I'm not a Simms supporter for the HoF. I just don't see where Eli is significantly better.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I bleed blue. I've been a Giants fan since before Lawrence Taylor took his first snort of cocaine.

And I'm here to tell you Eli is not a "shoe in playing with house money" when it comes to the HoF. Sure, he "might" get in, but it is no lock. And if it were up to me, he wouldn't, at least based on what he's done to this point.

Exhibit A:
(Advanced Stats in parenthesis where applicable)

Eli Manning
2 SB rings, 2 SB MVPs
Top 10 Pass TD: 7
Top 10 TD%: 5 (105)
Bottom 10 Int: 7
Top 10 Int%: 1 (93)
Top 10 Comp%: 1 (93)
Top 10 Pass Yds: 4
Top 10 Rating: 1 (97)
Top 10 Yds/Att: 4 (101)


Mystery QB:
2 SB rings, 1 SB MVP (DNP - injured in other SB, but set a still standing SB record in his MVP game)
Top 10 Pass TD: 6
Top 10 TD%: 5 (102)
Bottom 10 Int: 3
Top 10 Int%: 5 (109)
Top 10 Comp%: 3 (99)
Top 10 Pass Yds: 4
Top 10 Rating: 5 (105)
Top 10 Yds/Att: 7 (104)

The Mystery QB, who has a resume on par with Eli's is NOT in the HoF. His regular season work is better compared to his peers than Eli's. To give the rings thing some credence, I'll call it a wash based on the fact that The Mystery QB earned one of his rings while nursing an injury. Still, during that season TMQ started 14 games and was the 4th highest rated passer in the league. If you haven't figured out who this guy is click below...

 

Btw, his still standing SB record is for highest completion percentage. Against Elway's Broncos he completed 22 of 25 passes for an amazing 88%.

If Eli is HoF worthy, so is he.

Quick note with regard bringing up QBs from the past who supposedly threw tons of picks, especially if they played before the 1980s: This simply isn't the case for most of the guys mentioned in regards to the era they played in. In the case of Unitas, he consistently threw more TD's than picks (usually a lot more) at a time when the league as a whole was doing the exact opposite. For instance take 1959. He led the league in yards (2899) and threw 32 TD and 14 Int. Even by today's standards that's an enviable TD:Int Ratio, though the yardage seems a bit low. The league as a whole 197 TD and 221 picks, or 36 Int for every 32 TD. The only guys mentioned (I think) that really threw a lot of picks in comparison to his peers were Favre and Bradshaw. Favre took lots of heat for it. Not sure if Bradshaw ever did, but his 4 rings has obscured a lot of his flaws.

Phil Simms might be in the Hall of Fame if he was the starting QB of the Hostetler-led Giants Super Bowl team...not sure of your point. He is a top 5 QB not in the Hall of Fame as it stands now. The second Super Bowl, and potential Super Bowl MVP - Simms was having one of his best seasons to date before he was injured against the Bills in Week 14 - could have been enough to put him into a legitimate Hall of Fame discussion. However, he didn't, and Hostetler went on to have a near flawless five game run for the Giants. Simms would battle with Hostetler (due to Ray Handley being an awful coach) until Dan Reeves showed up, he had a good final season and he retired.

Very underrated QB. If not for injury...probably a Hall of Famer. Probably not the best example to use, and IMO, a strong argument for Eli going into the Hall...he DOES have the second ring (and Super Bowl MVP) and will finish his career very high with those career marks.

FWIW, IMO, the five best QBs not (or, won't be, I should say) in the Hall of Fame are Donovan McNabb, Ken Anderson, Phil Simms, John Brodie, Randall Cunningham (or Ken Stabler, depending on my mood). At the sake of full disclosure. And, yes, I'd take Eli over all of them.

 

[dell71]

Phil Simms might be in the Hall of Fame if he was the starting QB of the Hostetler-led Giants Super Bowl team...not sure of your point. He is a top 5 QB not in the Hall of Fame as it stands now. The second Super Bowl, and potential Super Bowl MVP - Simms was having one of his best seasons to date before he was injured against the Bills in Week 14 - could have been enough to put him into a legitimate Hall of Fame discussion. However, he didn't, and Hostetler went on to have a near flawless five game run for the Giants. Simms would battle with Hostetler (due to Ray Handley being an awful coach) until Dan Reeves showed up, he had a good final season and he retired.

Very underrated QB. If not for injury...probably a Hall of Famer. Probably not the best example to use, and IMO, a strong argument for Eli going into the Hall...he DOES have the second ring (and Super Bowl MVP) and will finish his career very high with those career marks.

FWIW, IMO, the five best QBs not (or, won't be, I should say) in the Hall of Fame are Donovan McNabb, Ken Anderson, Phil Simms, John Brodie, Randall Cunningham (or Ken Stabler, depending on my mood). At the sake of full disclosure. And, yes, I'd take Eli over all of them.

My point is that the difference between the two of them is really 1 game. You seem to admit as much by acknowledging he'd probably be in the hall if he was the starting QB for the 2nd SB. Again, we're calling one a HoFer and saying the other has no earthly shot on the basis of 1 game. 1 drive even, if you really want to be accurate. That makes no sense to me.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

My point is that the difference between the two of them is really 1 game. You seem to admit as much by acknowledging he'd probably be in the hall if he was the starting QB for the 2nd SB. Again, we're calling one a HoFer and saying the other has no earthly shot on the basis of 1 game. 1 drive even, if you really want to be accurate. That makes no sense to me.

Not one game, an entire playoff...which, yes, could be the difference between Hall of Famer and not, especially guys on the borderline, which Simms is. But more than just that playoff run, Simms also lost a few more productive years on the back end post-Parcells which keeps him out. Imagine Simms with another Super Bowl ring, another Super Bowl MVP (with another great playoff run -Hostetler was nearly flawless...no reason Simms couldn't replicate...if he doesn't break his foot, these are a given, IMO)...and throw another 30 touchdowns, possibly reaching the 40K yards mark (a stretch, but he gets damn close), and maybe another Pro Bowl (he was a Pro Bowler in his final season when Reeves finally put him back as the unquestioned starter). We're talking about a shoe-in Hall of Famer. As is, he's one of the first five guys left out.

Which is why I ask...what is your point...if its Anti-Eli, no offense, I think the Phil Simms example helps the Eli case. Compare Simms to say...Troy Aikman, a Hall of Famer...the numbers hold up.

Also, FWIW, Phil Simms may very well be a Hall of Famer one day. He is a prime Senior Committee selection in a few years.

 

[dell71]

Not one game, an entire playoff...which, yes, could be the difference between Hall of Famer and not, especially guys on the borderline, which Simms is. But more than just that playoff run, Simms also lost a few more productive years on the back end post-Parcells which keeps him out. Imagine Simms with another Super Bowl ring, another Super Bowl MVP (with another great playoff run -Hostetler was nearly flawless...no reason Simms couldn't replicate...if he doesn't break his foot, these are a given, IMO)...and throw another 30 touchdowns, possibly reaching the 40K yards mark (a stretch, but he gets damn close), and maybe another Pro Bowl (he was a Pro Bowler in his final season when Reeves finally put him back as the unquestioned starter). We're talking about a shoe-in Hall of Famer. As is, he's one of the first five guys left out.

Which is why I ask...what is your point...if its Anti-Eli, no offense, I think the Phil Simms example helps the Eli case. Compare Simms to say...Troy Aikman, a Hall of Famer...the numbers hold up.

Also, FWIW, Phil Simms may very well be a Hall of Famer one day. He is a prime Senior Committee selection in a few years.

If we're going to use counting stats then they should at least have some context. Saying Simms should have reached 40K yards sounds great except it ignores the fact that at the time he retired, only Tarkenton (then the all-time leader), Marino, Montana, and Unitas had reached that mark. Simms was actually 11th all time in yards when he walked away from the game despite the injuries and the Ray Handley era. Similarly, he was 16th all time in TD passes. It's not like Simms didn't have very good cumulative numbers. To add in another number, look at his career passer rating of 78.5. Sounds paltry by today's standards, but his career ended in 1993. Of the players whose careers had ended by '93 he has the 13th highest mark. Eli is 21st among active QBs.

I'm not even suggesting Simms should be in the HoF. I don't think he should. At least, his career is of a very good (certainly better than average) QB with a SB MVP whereas Eli's is that of an average QB piling up big numbers when everyone else is piling up even bigger ones and had one more great run than the other guy. I don't think that's enough of a difference for us to already be measuring him for his yellow jacket.

So yeah, my point would be that Eli should not be in at this point, not that Simms should.