Look what I found in my email today...

[Houston]

Congrats, very impressive.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I'm curious of the criteria for "Non-Wrestlers"...we can debate the likes of Sting and Edge until we're blue in the face.

But how do you debate MEAN GENE OKERLUND? He is a vital cog in some of my favorite promos of all-time...that's enough for me.

 

[ThomasTomasz]

I like Edge just fine, but he doesnt really tick any of the boxes at an elite level. I don't consider him an elite worker. He was not an elite draw. He popped a nice RAW rating after the MITB cash in, but lots of guys popped a rating once or twice, so that's not HOF material. He was top heel at times and had good programs with Cena but does anybody really think of Edge as a long term, true, money drawing top guy? I know I don't.

Edge had a nice peak as was a star. Not a hall of famer, unless you want to open the door for dozens of other decent guys who had the occasional top run. And as I said, his work alone isn't good enough to carry him. That's why I say immediate no to him, but leave a crack open for Henning & Owen Hart, who were top workers.

Fair enough, I was going to say something along those lines, and his peak was abruptly ended with his neck injury.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I've decided to vote for Don Owen & Jerry Jarrett.

I've always felt they should be in, but wanted to do some research to make sure I wasn't overrating them for whatever reason.

Don Owen - Portland was a top territory from the 50's to the 90's and had the longest running television show in U.S. wrestling history. Owen was widely regarded as the most honest promoter in the business, and Portland was well known as the territory with the best & fairest payoffs. Owen was so respected, that out of loyalty Roddy Piper refused to work WWF shows in the 80's that ran in Owen's territory. Portland outlasted just about every territory after national expansion, and he was making money right up until the very end.

Jerry Jarett - Memphis. Obvious a red hot territory for decades. He won the promotional war against the Gulas family, and Memphis, like Portland, lasted well into national expansion thanks to Jarrett presenting a brand of wrestling that the locals ate up and also good business dealings with Vince McMahon. Memphis wrestling had legendary angle heavy TV that was probably way ahead of its time in hindsight (most territories hardly ever ran TV angles, the AWA for example maybe ran one or two per year), allowing them to draw sellouts weekly in the same town for many years which is crazy when you think about it. He understood the market, was a good business man, and unlike Owen was notoriously cheap and a horrible payoff man, proving there is more than one way to skin a cat in the wrestling business.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Good to see you'll be casting a vote for Don Owen...I'm shocked he's not already in. He and PNW were too well respected and lasted too long and kept making money. I do recall Piper being very loyal to the man, as well.

 

[FedEx227]

I'm curious of the criteria for "Non-Wrestlers"...we can debate the likes of Sting and Edge until we're blue in the face.

But how do you debate MEAN GENE OKERLUND? He is a vital cog in some of my favorite promos of all-time...that's enough for me.

I'd be a sucker for most of those guys in the non-wrestler category especially someone like Mean Gene who as you mentioned was a vital cog for so many classic promos, classic builds, classic soundclips, classic everything really.

Ditto for Fink.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I'm having a ton of trouble with the non wrestler category and the 5 person limit.

Aside from the three i've eliminated, everybody is still in play for my final three spots. Im voting the full five for sure. Leaning towards Jimmy Hart, Bill Apter, & Matsunaga, but I keep changing my mind. Gene Okerlund & Howard Finkel are strong candidates. Same for Ventura. Monsoon's announcing is not hall of fame worthy imo but combined with his behind the scenes stuff he's as strong as anybody. Gary Hart is not a HOF manager, but he booked a super hot promotion and like Monsoon when all things are combined he's a candidate.

Fuck, this is hard.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

The fact that so many people are perplexed that Sting never comes close to induction is proof to me that Apter probably belongs, since Apter's propaganda is one of the big reasons people view Sting as a bigger star than he ever really was.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I think Apter's influence on wrestling isn't as obvious to newer fans...but he deserves to get in, IMO. His mags were marky, but they helped expand the universe of wrestling.

Also, I'm curious why you'd consider Apter but immediately disregard Stanley Weston...? Unless you feel his influence IN WRESTLING wasn't enough, which, I understand. If this were WWE-esque, I'd probably put Apter and Weston in together. When I consider "Hall of Fame" material, my first criteria is "Can you tell the story of _________ without ___________."...I think Weston is a bullet point in the modern history of the fight game in general, so he's get my vote...but can understand a no vote if your rationale is that he wasn't influential enough IN WRESTLING.

 

[FedEx227]

I think that's really it, if this was a HOF that didn't matter you'd put them both in at a PWI level. However, if you have to actually vote guys in I'd chose Apter who put in the work and covered the sport versus Weston who was merely along for the ride as a publisher.

Even as a younger fan I'd put Apter in, he was my first real exposure to the "business" of wrestling even though the mags were kayfabe. It still opened up a lot of eyes to the larger scope of the business and not just what was on TV on Mondays/Saturdays or at your local VFW hall.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I think that's really it, if this was a HOF that didn't matter you'd put them both in at a PWI level. However, if you have to actually vote guys in I'd chose Apter who put in the work and covered the sport versus Weston who was merely along for the ride as a publisher.

Even as a younger fan I'd put Apter in, he was my first real exposure to the "business" of wrestling even though the mags were kayfabe. It still opened up a lot of eyes to the larger scope of the business and not just what was on TV on Mondays/Saturdays or at your local VFW hall.

Don't under value the influence of the man that make the magazines happen. Without Weston, Apter doesn't have a vehicle to become a Hall of Famer. Weston's vision of these fight game magazines were pretty important to making them relevant. Weston would get in under the same way he did in boxing, which is promoting the sport. I feel he'd get in under the same guise.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

The content of those magazines were Apter's vision. To me he was far more important to the influence those things wielded than Weston.

You could argue Apter pushed Lex Luger, Sting, Dusty Rhodes, Kerry Von Erich, Sabu, Road Warriors, etc harder than the promoters did at times. He made those guys stars to people who never saw them before.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

The content of those magazines were Apter's vision. To me he was far more important to the influence those things wielded than Weston.

You could argue Apter pushed Lex Luger, Sting, Dusty Rhodes, Kerry Von Erich, Sabu, Road Warriors, etc harder than the promoters did at times. He made those guys stars to people who never saw them before.

Weston had those combined Boxing-Wrestling publications that kept kayfabe back in the Early 50's. He was covering the likes of Dory Funk right along Sonny Liston.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Weston had those combined Boxing-Wrestling publications that kept kayfabe back in the Early 50's. He was covering the likes of Dory Funk right along Sonny Liston.

That's fine. But PWI really took off as a promotional vehicle in the 70's when Apter took over as editor. I liken this to a owner when hires a great coach who takes his teams to multiple championships. That coach is always getting into the hall of fame, but the owner may not.

I have no issue with Weston on the ballot, but they don't call them Weston Mags, brother.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

That's fine. But PWI really took off as a promotional vehicle in the 70's when Apter took over as editor. I liken this to a owner when hires a great coach who takes his teams to multiple championships. That coach is always getting into the hall of fame, but the owner may not.

I have no issue with Weston on the ballot, but they don't call them Weston Mags, brother.

That was in response to you saying those mags were in Apter's vision when really, they were in Weston's.

This would be more akin to Ed Sabol getting into the Hall of Fame while Steve Sabol is, too.

 

[FedEx227]

Ed Sabol's role in the day to day of NFL Films >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Weston role with PWI.

And that's not a slight on Weston, he had 6-7 other magazines he had to pay attention to. Sabol has one company, one focus and it was making NFL Films the powerhouse it became. I just don't know they are that comparable.

To me it's closer to Ed McLemore getting into the HOF because he co-owned the Sportatorium with Fritz.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Ed Sabol's role in the day to day of NFL Films >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Weston role with PWI

You have nothing to back that claim up.

Weston was taking his own photos for years for both boxing and wrestling. He was PAINTING magazine covers. Writing his own content years before Bill Apter was involved and PWI was made. PWI didn't come about until what...25 years of Boxing Illustrated/Wrestling News and Wrestling Revue was already in the books. Those mags were "Apter Mags" before Apter Mags existed. And, they all came from the same guy in his image, covering wrestling as if everything going on is real and covered right along side boxing.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Those types of magazines did not rise to prominence nor hold the same influence until Apter led the charge. I understand why Weston is on the ballot but I feel Apter is a much stronger candidate.

I'm struggling with Gary Hart. Mediocre manager imo, superlative booker, but it wasn't by himself. He's almost like a poor man's Paul Heyman in a lot of ways.

Jimmy Hart I think has a strong enough case based on Memphis alone, plus influence. WWF stuff is icing on the cake, even though by the end and in WCW he was pretty dreadful (granted, face manager is a death spot).

Okerlund was the best. Period. From the AWA through WWF, he perfected that role and I believe he helped sell tickets. WCW he stopped trying and became a parody of himself. But holy fuck, watch his AWA stuff and his WWF local promo stuff and in retrospect he knew what the fuck he was doing. But is there a place for his role in the hall of fame? I don't know. Ray Guy?

Howard Finkel. See above. Ray Guy? Plus, it's hard to judge these guys purely on merit, when the criteria in unquantifiable, and they just happened to luck out and be i the right place at the right time during a very popular period. Would Finkel be on the ballot if he was the Portland ring announcer? Or was he so good, that this is WHY he was the guy in the top company? These are the questions that you have to ask yourself. What if Finkel and Gary Michael Capetta had switched companies? Are we debating Capetta now, with Finkel as the afterthought?

Gorilla Monsoon. Hard one. Owned WWWF pre VKM, had a stake in successful Puerto Rico territory too. As a TV announcer, we have fond memories because of his place & time, but I don't think he was hall of fame level on that alone. Many people who weren't children at the time think he was dreadful. I'm in the middle. He got guys over but he was repetitive and hurt the product at times, too. He buried guys, particularly heels, too much for my liking. I think somebody like Jesse Ventura was a far more influential announcer. Which brings me to..

Jesse Ventura. Man, I don't know. I could really vote yes to any of these people with no regret. I only get five max. Is being the best heel color man enough? And again, I try not to get wrapped up in WWF peaking during my childhood, which skews things. Did other places have heel guys as good or better? I dont know. Probably. Or maybe not.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Takashi Matsunaga. All Japan Women was at times the hottest promotion on the planet. I knew very little about him until the last few days, but now I view him as a virtual lock. He found an innovative way to draw money from a completely different fan base than what everybody else was doing.

Dave Brown. I have no idea what to do with this guy. I've set him aside, at least for this year.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Okerlund was easily the best at whatever it was he did in the business...WWF sold tickets based on the work he did with the likes of Hogan and Savage. Those promos were mint, and while Hogan and Savage were two of the best promo men of all time, some of those great epic promos aren't quite as good if they are there with Renee Young or some ham'n'egger. His work in the AWA with Andre and Jesse the Body. So good. Considering the promos back in that day sold tickets, Okerlund has to be apart of that equation.

I'd hold off on Fink, I can't quite quantify, even abstractly, Fink's contributions...he was great...but...did it advance the product in any way? I have no idea.

Gorilla for all combined efforts, I think would get in. Very influential in VKM's early days. He'd fall under the "could you tell the history of wrestling without him"...I'd say no. Was also a alright draw in the NY area back in the 70's. I sense people overthinking a Gorilla induction. Probably not a Hall of Famer in one specific area...but a sum of all parts nominee, IMO.

I just like Ventura a lot...so, my opinion would be skewed.

I'd say no to Gary Hart. Yes to Jimmy Hart, however, I fear if you put Jimmy Hart in, there are other managers that'd go in, too. I'd fear splitting those hairs.