Our own VSN's top 50 greatest NFL players of all time

[Blick]

Thats actually my only question with him. I think he's awesome. I just want to see him carry the load and have another big year.

What if he doesn't carry the load but still ends up around 1500 yards and is second in the league in rushing again?

I hope he gets more carries, but who knows what Todd Haley is going to do.

 

[Blick]

Name a team with a winning record the Chiefs beat last year.

San Diego...

 

[Bmore]

San Diego...

you talking about the same San Diego team that raped the Chiefs 31-0?


Name another...

 

[Bmore]

btw, I agree with you on the Seahawks being worse. However, the chiefs weren't any good. They beat 1 team with a winning record and then got smoked by them later in the year.

In reality the only thing that helps the Chiefs argument is that they actually beat the Seahawks IN Seattle.

 

[Blick]

you talking about the same San Diego team that raped the Brodie "zero career wins" Croyle led Chiefs 31-0?


Name another...

Fixed.

But anyway, yeah, the Chiefs definitely got helped by a weak schedule last year and I've said that before. They will have to make another huge jump in improvement to defend the division crown.

 

[Blick]

btw, I agree with you on the Seahawks being worse. However, the chiefs weren't any good. They beat 1 team with a winning record and then got smoked by them later in the year.

In reality the only thing that helps the Chiefs argument is that they actually beat the Seahawks IN Seattle.

I wouldn't say the Chiefs weren't any good. They were decent. They have a lot of young talent.

 

[JBregz]

Foster has one good year. Charles has two

And Steven has had 7

Charles actually weighs more, which means he can probably handle 300+ carries if Johnson can.

Yeah and Brandon Jacobs weighs like 265 lbs..The reason he lost his starting job was because he faced injury problems. Weight means little, it's called toughness.

I'm not saying Foster is better than Charles. I'm just showing you flaws in your ways of deciding who is better.

If Charles can put up what he has for another season or two then he has the right to be considered an elite back in the league.

 

[ram29jackson]

everybody had a weak schedule last year if you really think about it

 

[Blick]

And Steven has had 7



Yeah and Brandon Jacobs weighs like 265 lbs..The reason he lost his starting job was because he faced injury problems. Weight means little, it's called toughness.

I'm not saying Foster is better than Charles. I'm just showing you flaws in your ways of deciding who is better.

If Charles can put up what he has for another season or two then he has the right to be considered an elite back in the league.

And Tony Gonzalez has more great years than Vernon Davis, but who's better right now?

Charles isn't lacking any toughness either.

He's already elite. If you don't recognize him as elite, that's fine. Running back is an instinctual position. You either have it or you don't. Charles isn't going to fall off out of nowhere unless he has a career threatening injury.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Shayn you are creating battles that no one is arguing with you about. when did anyone say Matthews was better than Ware? when did anyone denounce what James Harrison has done? when did anyone say Woodley is a bad player?

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Aaron Rodgers
4. Troy Polamalu
5. Darelle Revis
6. Drew Brees
7. Adrian Peterson
8. Andre Johnson
9. Chris Johnson
10. Ed Reed
11. Clay Matthews
12. Roddy White
13. Nnamdi Asomugha
14. Phillip Rivers
15. Ray Lewis
16. Larry Fitzgerald
17. Steven Jackson
18. DaMarcus Ware
19. Antonio Gates
20. Reggie Wayne
21. Michael Vick
22. Patrick Willis
23. Charles Woodson
24. Haloti Ngata
25. Maurice Jones Drew
26. Lance Briggs
27. Dwight Freeney
28. Mario Williams
29. James Harrison
30. Champ Bailey
31. Matt Forte
32. Ray Rice
33. Greg Jennings
34. Vince Wilfork
35. Jamaal Charles
36. Ben Roethlisberger
37. Dallas Clark
38. Ryan Clady
39. Jared Allen
40. Arian Foster
41. Terrell Suggs
42. Tony Gonzalez
43. Nick Mangold
44. John Abraham
45. Wes Welker
46. Casey Hampton
47. Jeff Saturday
48. Calvin Johnson
49. Adrian Wilson
50. Brian Urlacher :smug:

 

[JBregz]

And Tony Gonzalez has more great years than Vernon Davis, but who's better right now?

Charles isn't lacking any toughness either.

He's already elite. If you don't recognize him as elite, that's fine. Running back is an instinctual position. You either have it or you don't. Charles isn't going to fall off out of nowhere unless he has a career threatening injury.

You're comparing a the greatest TE of all time who is at the end of the his career. You act as if Steven Jackson is old. He's only 27.

How is he not lacking any toughness?
How often were he runs to the outside/pitches.

This is just like the Marino/Montana thread.

Charles can do it, but Jackson has already been doing it.

 

[Senser81]

Last year Woodley had 10.0 sacks and 50 tackles, the year before he had 13.5 sacks and 62 tackles, the year before that 11.5 sacks and 60 tackles. He's been more productive over the last 3 seasons than Mathews, and he's in a better defense (it's true) and he's still young like Mathews, and shows just as much potential as Mathews to continue dropping 10-14 sacks per season. He's absolutely in that range of talent as far as I'm concerned. I'm still waiting to see why he's so over-hyped(Mathews).

Harrison has been DPOY, along with his 10 sacks last year had had 90 tackles, and is a highlight machine. [remember the SB's longest play in history, the 100 yard INT return to close out halftime against the Cards] The dude doesn't just change games, I've seen Harrison win multiple games. He drops double digit sacks every year, along with 80+ tackles per year, along with all the turnovers and havoc he creates, it's crazy not to consider him higher on these lists.

Too many of these linebackers are on par or so close to each other in talent and production that it's not possible to separate them by such a wide margin. And I'm taking issue with Mathews because it's obvious to me that he's being over-hyped based on winning the SB, which Harrison and Woodley have done as well.

For one, IMO Matthews is much more important to his team than Harrison or Woodley. The Packers defense was suspect before Matthews arrived. I don't think its coincidence that after his arrival both he and Woodson have won DPOTY awards. I think the Steelers can replace Harrison or Woodley without much drop in team performance (but they can't replace Clark or Polamalu).

Two, Matthews has great range and is able to slip blocks pretty easily. I think Woodley and Harrison are very good, but they don't have Matthews combo of speed and technique.

I do agree that the difference between the three players isn't substantial, but I also think the Matthews right now is a little bit tougher for offenses to deal with than Harrison or Woodley.

 

[Blick]

You're comparing a the greatest TE of all time who is at the end of the his career. You act as if Steven Jackson is old. He's only 27.

How is he not lacking any toughness?
How often were he runs to the outside/pitches.

This is just like the Marino/Montana thread.

Charles can do it, but Jackson has already been doing it.

Running back is a young man's position with a very short career lifespan. When given the choice between two extremely talented backs, I'm taking the younger guy every time. Jackson isn't old at all, but the number of carries he has endured has no doubt started to deteriorate his body. I saw Larry Johnson break down at 27/28 with significantly fewer carries under his belt than Jackson. When you consider the number of carries Jackson has been given, his physical running style, and his lack of blocking...that all adds up to some serious potential for a breakdown sooner rather than later.

So, Charles lacks toughness because of KC's play calling? How does that work? You can see that he's tough if you watch him run. He finishes runs with good body lean and low pad level. He doesn't try to avoid contact. He's played hurt. I've seen him get his helmet ripped off mid-run and his legs kept churning. I've seen him pop defenders while blocking and when tackling guys on INT returns. He's tough.

What is this "it" you speak of? Charles has already done things in his young career that Jackson has never done and will never do.

 

[Senser81]

Steve Jackson is Rocky, Jamal Charles is Clubber Lang. No contest.

Charles, easily.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

For one, IMO Matthews is much more important to his team than Harrison or Woodley. The Packers defense was suspect before Matthews arrived. I don't think its coincidence that after his arrival both he and Woodson have won DPOTY awards. I think the Steelers can replace Harrison or Woodley without much drop in team performance (but they can't replace Clark or Polamalu).

I thought you were one who doesn't subscribe to the "look at who's he's playing with" standpoint. Also, don't forget how important Woodson, Collins, Raji, and Jenkins are to that D. Blame the Steelers for drafting a linebacker year after year when they don't have to, and consistently finding the next great linebacker. There is always going to be two, maybe three, great linebackers in Pittsburgh. This doesn't mean individually they aren't as good.

edit: Can't replace clark? huh? lol

Two, Matthews has great range and is able to slip blocks pretty easily. I think Woodley and Harrison are very good, but they don't have Matthews combo of speed and technique.

Their speed is comparable, Mathews 40 time is 4.62, Woodley's 40 time is 4.62, he's every bit as fast as Mathews. Woodley is also just as quick, they had nearly the same broad jump 10'01" and vertical 38-1/2" compared to Mathews 35-1/2" vertical and 10'1" broad jump. This just goes to show that Woodley's explosion is also on par with Mathews.

Woodley however is 20 lbs heavier and a bit stronger than Mathews. Mathews did 225 only 25 times, still good, but Woodley did it 29 times. This is all fact, not fiction. Like I said before, in measurables they are almost the same athlete.

I think your evaluation of Mathews having more technique and speed are quite inaccurate. Woodley is great at slipping blocks as well, but has a bit more power to bull rush through linemen, which is often the fastest way to the QB.

I do agree that the difference between the three players isn't substantial, but I also think the Matthews right now is a little bit tougher for offenses to deal with than Harrison or Woodley.

This can't possibly be true. You're trying to tell me it's tougher to deal with one pass rusher than it is to deal with two pass rushers. Not possible.

 

[Senser81]

Blick with his back of the football card analysis.

:jhenbeatkwon:

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Steve Jackson is Rocky, Jamal Charles is Clubber Lang. No contest.

Charles, easily.

Don't you think Charles is more of an Apollo Creed? I mean clubber was a one-trick pony. But Charles can dance.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VG7Da6lRgQ[/ame]

 

[Blick]

Charles cannot be Apollo Creed because Creed dies. Charles will live forever.

 

[Senser81]

I thought you were one who doesn't subscribe to the "look at who's he's playing with" standpoint.

Looks like I just renewed my subscription, bitch. RECOGNIZE!

Their speed is comparable, Mathews 40 time is 4.62, Woodley's 40 time is 4.62, he's every bit as fast as Mathews. Woodley is also just as quick, they had nearly the same broad jump 10'01" and vertical 38-1/2" compared to Mathews 35-1/2" vertical and 10'1" broad jump. This just goes to show that Woodley's explosion is also on par with Mathews.

I'm not judging on track times and verticals. Matthews plays at a faster speed than Harrison and Woodley. For example, I don't know what Polamalu's 40 time is, but he's the fastest defensive player in the NFL.

Woodley however is 20 lbs heavier and a bit stronger than Mathews. Mathews did 225 only 25 times, still good, but Woodley did it 29 times. This is all fact, not fiction. Like I said before, in measurables they are almost the same athlete.

I never claimed Matthews was stronger. Or heavier.

I think your evaluation of Mathews having more technique and speed are quite inaccurate.

I don't.

This can't possibly be true. You're trying to tell me it's tougher to deal with one pass rusher than it is to deal with two pass rushers. Not possible.

You got me. Matthews isn't two people. What is the better passing combination...Roethlisberger to Wallace, or Aaron Rodgers?

 

[bucky]

What is the better passing combination...Roethlisberger to Wallace, or Aaron Rodgers?

That would STILL be Aaron Rodgers.:smug: