Sick in the head (Pain acknowledged and denied, in the NFL, NHL and in general)

[killgod]

Please divulge your thoughts on a switch from 85 to 100 or even 93 feet wide ice. Do you think the shoulder pads NHL players currently wear need reconsideration? Should the two-line pass be re-introduced? These are the concussion hot points, but I imagine you have given them very little thought; deciding instead to focus on the marginal issue which has been spun out of control by the media and the uninformed sports fan.

I'd be interested to see if they could use the kevlar plates I read about yesterday that are now used by James Harrison and Troy Polamalu. Apparently it's worked well for them but I also wonder if those plates increase impact damage on opposing players?

Doesn't really apply to hockey since there's no H2H hitting, but considering their comments and the buzz about head injury, you'd wonder why this isn't talked about more.

 

[NAHSTE]

Please divulge your thoughts on a switch from 85 to 100 or even 93 feet wide ice.

Won't that lead to higher impact, if less frequent, collisions? With more room to build up steam you might see even worse hits.

Do you think the shoulder pads NHL players currently wear need reconsideration?

Equipment improvements had the opposite effect in football and they made the players feel untouchable, and thus caused them to hit more recklessly. Or are you suggesting they be made softer? That would be interesting to see.

Should the two-line pass be re-introduced?

Probably. Wasn't one of the main reasons they got rid of it to increase scoring and attract more casual fans? If it makes the game safer, yeah, put it back.

 

[wr50l]

I don't think anyone has even tried to claim that fighting is the sole cause of concussions in hockey, or even the primary cause of them.

What we are saying ... in plain English for the slow ... is that fighting certainly can't help reduce concussions, which is the league's objective, so why even have them?

Yes, there are a variety of other reasons for this concussion "epidemic" ... but it's being intentionally hard headed to sit here and say fighting has NOTHING to do with them.

Whether or not it's the primary cause, that doesn't change the fact that getting punched in the face DOES NOT HELP REDUCE CONCUSSIONS therefore RUNS COUNTER TO THE LEAGUE'S GOAL. Whether the league or its players realize that or not, fighting does more harm than good.

3 page thread filled with questionable hockey fans discussing fighting. 0 page thread filled with questionable hockey fans discussing Matt Cooke, "protective equipment" which serves as a weapon, or the post-lockout rule changes which added inconceivable speed to the game.

 

[Ravin]

MMA is still young enough for the most part as well to where we may not see the ramifications of that for a while. However, yet again fighting is needed to win a fight. Fighting is not needed to win a hockey game so the combat sports comparison to hockey is still bad.

This is where I have the issue with everything. If we are so worried in this world about head trauma in the NHL and NFL, then why is there not more people going after the UFC.

It seems like very backwards logic to say "we should not allow fighting in this sport (where there is .50 fights per game, and about 10 punches) because it has nothing to do winning the game, but we should allow fighting in UFC because that is the sport."??!!??

If there are all these studies on head trauma and all these cases of athletes (like Ali as you pointed out) who are in long term care or dead, then why is there not more action against UFC and boxing. You can't just keep saying "because it is the sport". That isn't a reply. Because if you say that you are basically saying it is ok if these players get their brains bashed in, but not ok for these players.


You guys just keeping focusing on fighting, but as we have said that you keep just glancing over because it isn't on your list of things to troll about is, that isn't the fix to the problem. All of these players out right now are not fighters. You keep just blowing past them in your points and have not once came up with a solution to fix that issue.

How does getting rid of fighting fix this

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3AjW0Vc_AA"]Wayne Simmonds/Claude Giroux collision - 12-10-11 - [HD] - YouTube[/ame]

or this

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfZgdDCnbGQ"]Krejci's alleged elbow on Crosby + chirping, SlowMo 12/5/11 - YouTube[/ame]

or this

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8cQxJvgeJA"]David Steckel Blindside Hit on Sidney Crosby 01/01/2011 (CBC Feed) - YouTube[/ame]

Just saying if you guys are actually here to 'fight the good fight on head trauma' then why have you not talked about those hits at all and what the NHL can do to fix them.

 

[killgod]

Probably. Wasn't one of the main reasons they got rid of it to increase scoring and attract more casual fans? If it makes the game safer, yeah, put it back.

I'm not sold on the two line pass making a difference, see Scott Stevens.

 

[FirstTimer]

Please divulge your thoughts on a switch from 85 to 100 or even 93 feet wide ice.

This is the same issue the NFL explored a few years ago(I believe). I think widening the ice would be a bad move. More space. More chance to gain speed, more veloctiy. More violent hits.

If the league is serious about the concussion or brain trauma issue I would think they'd be against it.

Do you think the shoulder pads NHL players currently wear need reconsideration?

Yes. Protective gear should continue to evolve and be looked at by the league.

The NFL going to smaller and lighter pads is also something that troubles me. See above about increased speed.

Should the two-line pass be re-introduced?

I'm rather ambigious on this rule. While I see it cutting down on the amount of hits that occur at a higher speed from a concussion stand point it should more than likely come back. From a strategy standpoint in hockey I'd rather see it stay...but you can legislate around two line passing being dangerous with increased penalties for dangerous hits etc. Dangerous high speed hits will always happen in hockey as a function of the sport..just like football. Fighting functions outside of the sport because the sport literally stops when the fight occurs.

How are you NOT grasping this concept?

deciding instead to focus on the marginal issue which has been spun out of control by the media and the uninformed sports fan.

LOL at this. Yeah "uninformed sports fans" who know that fighting in hockey is retarded and if anyone is actually serious about cutting down brain trauma they'd eliminate a needless act like fighting from the sport.

GTFO with that shit.

 

[Ravin]

The best way to save the players (and by players I mean ALL THE 700+ NHL PLAYERS and not just the small group who fight) is to slow the game down.

I believe 'skill' has caught up to the point where you could slow the game down and it would not hurt things.

1. no touch icing or hybrid icing at least needs to be in
2. put the red line back in (1-3-1 defence would reign in this though)
3. get better helmets and get rid of these plastic plates in the shoulder pads and elbow pads. So increase one piece of equipment and decrease another.

 

[wr50l]

Won't that lead to higher impact, if less frequent, collisions? With more room to build up steam you might see even worse hits.

I think more space for attackers would stop defencemen from being put in a position where they can "take a run" at the puck carrier. There would be less hits for sure, and arguably they would be less impactful as well.

Equipment improvements had the opposite effect in football and they made the players feel untouchable, and thus caused them to hit more recklessly. Or are you suggesting they be made softer? That would be interesting to see.

Yes, softer like old style pads. Bearing in mind that the majority of concussions come from hits and that every so often a defender with reasonable intent can accidentally throw a shoulder or even elbow into an opponent's face well ... I would think it is obvious that softer pads would make those blows less impactful.

Probably. Wasn't one of the main reasons they got rid of it to increase scoring and attract more casual fans? If it makes the game safer, yeah, put it back.

One argument that it would slow down the speed which players are travelling. On the other hand, it would condense the use of the rink even more and congestion is a bad thing.

As you can see from this post alone, there are conceivable solutions to concussions which have to be considered, frankly there's more still. Fighting is such a marginal problem with regards to the injury count yet such a major legislative issue that the notion of trying to write it out of the game before proceeding with the other solutions is a farcical plan which is honestly more endangering to the players.

 

[Ravin]

This is the same issue the NFL explored a few years ago(I believe). I think widening the ice would be a bad move. More space. More chance to gain speed, more veloctiy. More violent hits.

Actually when you make the ice bigger it gives people more places to move and less contact. Europeans play this way. If you pay close attention to hockey you will hear them talk about the "north american style" and the "euro style".

Euro style = more skill game, more about speed with the puck, and making plays happen. Bigger ice surface gives players more room to move around, avoid hits, and set up plays.

This is why you see a lot of skilled puck moving Euro players because that is what they grow up with.

North American style = everything is close, the dump and chase, hard hitting style of hockey.

 

[killgod]

This is the same issue the NFL explored a few years ago(I believe). I think widening the ice would be a bad move. More space. More chance to gain speed, more veloctiy. More violent hits.

If the league is serious about the concussion or brain trauma issue I would think they'd be against it.

One of your biggest arguments is that the "highest level", aka Olympics, they don't include fighting. Well how big is the ice at the "highest level" ?

Derp.

How are you NOT grasping this concept?

How are you not grasping the concept that the media convinced you that fighting is the problem, when 90% of concussions are coming from other type of play?

LOL at this. Yeah "uninformed sports fans" who know that fighting in hockey is retarded and if anyone is actually serious about cutting down brain trauma they'd eliminate a needless act like fighting from the sport.

GTFO with that shit.

Again, this is such a pathetic argument.

"Fighting is retarded, because I say so, not because the league and players say otherwise, but because I don't see the point in it, therefore it's retarded."

Fucking Americans are so hilarious with their egos.

 

[FirstTimer]

This is where I have the issue with everything. If we are so worried in this world about head trauma in the NHL and NFL, then why is there not more people going after the UFC.

I think you see a lot of people goign after it..

and yet again. Comparing a combat sport where fighting is needed to obtain a victory with hockey where fighting is not needed is besides the point.

But keep banging on that retarded out of tune drum.

If there are all these studies on head trauma and all these cases of athletes (like Ali as you pointed out) who are in long term care or dead, then why is there not more action against UFC and boxing. You can't just keep saying "because it is the sport". That isn't a reply. Because if you say that you are basically saying it is ok if these players get their brains bashed in, but not ok for these players.

One sport needs fighting to function.

The other does not.

There is a massive difference there.

See it yet?

You guys just keeping focusing on fighting, but as we have said that you keep just glancing over because it isn't on your list of things to troll about is, that isn't the fix to the problem.

No one is saying it"THE" fix. How many times do NAHSTE or I have to spell it out for you? Jesus Christ.

Quit being a fucking retard.

No one ever said if fighting ceased concussions would go away.

In fact we implied or said the exact opposite but found the NHL's position on fighting hypocritical and retarded because they are more than willing to legislate dangerous checks, boardings, etc that happen as a natural course of game action yet stand idley by while their sport still allows two men to hit each other in the head repeatedly while game action is stopped.

How are you NOT understanding this?

Just saying if you guys are actually here to 'fight the good fight on head trauma' then why have you not talked about those hits at all and what the NHL can do to fix them.

Because I feel the NHL is trying to take steps to do so. But those hits will always exist regardless of legislation. I think the NHL needs stiffer legislation and penalties for them but that's another issue. The NFL is legislating and now suspending people for h2h hits. Which they should. Short of banning checking in hockey(which I'm against) you can't eliminate hits liek those above from occuring. What you can do is increase penalties for them and attempt to make the game safer.

 

[killgod]

I think you see a lot of people goign after it..

and yet again. Comparing a combat sport where fighting is needed to obtain a victory with hockey where fighting is not needed is besides the point.

But keep banging on that retarded out of tune drum.

The world doesn't need MMA to exist.

How are you NOT understanding this?

 

[Ravin]

Also just wanted to ask, since all you new hockey people are so excited about the sport now...what game are you watching tonight?

Montreal and Chicago is on TSN if you want to stream the game, Philly vs Dallas will be on NBC/Versus for you Americans, and all the other 4 games will be available as well. Though Phoenix/Carolina is a dud game to watch.

For you guys not wanting fighting, I suggest Vancouver/Detroit. later tonight, or Tampa/San Jose.

I look forward to discussing the games with you all tomorrow morning.

 

:yao:

 

[FirstTimer]

Actually when you make the ice bigger it gives people more places to move and less contact. Europeans play this way. If you pay close attention to hockey you will hear them talk about the "north american style" and the "euro style".

And that's teh flip side.

My argument is that more area=more speed. More speed....more violent hits. I have the same take on the issue of the NFL making the field larger.

Euro style = more skill game, more about speed with the puck, and making plays happen. Bigger ice surface gives players more room to move around, avoid hits, and set up plays.

Ok? See above.

One of your biggest arguments is that the "highest level", aka Olympics, they don't include fighting. Well how big is the ice at the "highest level" ?

And I disagree with the Olympics on this issue.

I didn't say turn the NHL into Olympic style hockey.

I said the Olympics bans fighting and no one cares and the game continues on just fine without it. Fighting isn't intrical to the sport.

Nice try.

Derp derp derp

How are you not grasping the concept that the media convinced you that fighting is the problem

I never said fighting is THE problem.

Open your thick Canadian skull.


And using your stat....how about let's reduce concussions by 10% right off the bat by banning fighting? That would be good right? Sure the other 90% exist, and you try and legislate the game the best you can to reduce and control that 90%..same as the NFL does. Fighting isn't neede din hockey so let's reduce concussions by "10%" tomorrow! That'd be a great step.

Nice work retard.

"Fighting is retarded, because I say so, not because the league and players say otherwise, but because I don't see the point in it, therefore it's retarded."

The NFL actually came out years ago and said they weren't convinced that h2h hits are bad for the brain based on the evidence they had. Retarded no?

See NAHSTE's comments earlier about players being irrational on the issue.

 

[Ravin]

Again you are missing the point. What is more important peoples LIVES AND HEALTH or the sport. You seem perfectly fine taking away the living an NHL enforcer will make for his family, but you don't wan to touch the millions MMA/Boxing fighters make because that is the sport. But at the end of the day, is it not all about keeping human beings alive and well?

 

[FirstTimer]

The world doesn't need MMA to exist.

How are you NOT understanding this?

The world doesn't need any sport to exist.

BAN ALL SPORTS!

THEY ALL HAVE THE DANGERZ!

DERP DERP DERP CANADIAN!

 

[FirstTimer]

Again you are missing the point. What is more important peoples LIVES AND HEALTH or the sport. You seem perfectly fine taking away the living an NHL enforcer will make for his family, but you don't wan to touch the millions MMA/Boxing fighters make because that is the sport. But at the end of the day, is it not all about keeping human beings alive and well?

Never said that.

Not once.

I never said MMA and Boxing is "cool with me brah!". I simply said comparing a sport where combat is actually needed to obtain an outcome with a sport where fighting is not needed to win the game/match doesn't add up.

Keep swinging and missing.

 

[killgod]

The world doesn't need any sport to exist.

BAN ALL SPORTS!

THEY ALL HAVE THE DANGERZ!

DERP DERP DERP CANADIAN!

Intelligent troll is intelligent.

Feel free to pull out your soother and explain how hockey fights are some kind of different entertainment than an MMA fight.

Heaven forbid people watch hockey for violence....because it's sooooo different than watching MMA for violence. *gasp*

Are the all paid to fight? Yes. Do people want to watch? Yes.

Totally different tho bro.

 

[wr50l]

For what it's worth, my thoughts on what the league should do regarding concussions is this ...

Strongly police checking through supplemental discipline with lengthy suspensions for repeat offenders. I think so far we have seen this and, I have noticed many players playing a little conservatively when their opponent is vulnerable (which is a good thing).

If Shanahan's suspensions don't work in reducing the instances of elbows and shoulders hitting heads then the padding surely has to be softened up.

Make the rink wider, not necessarily Olympic size but definitey bigger. Realistically this one is a challenge because all of the new arenas have been built to 85 feet spec. fffuuuu

Do not re-institute the two-line pass on 85 feet ice because just about every team has a guy who could replicate Scott Stevens these days. If bigger ice ever did occur, the two-line pass may actually be needed though.

 

[killgod]

Again you are missing the point. What is more important peoples LIVES AND HEALTH or the sport. You seem perfectly fine taking away the living an NHL enforcer will make for his family, but you don't wan to touch the millions MMA/Boxing fighters make because that is the sport. But at the end of the day, is it not all about keeping human beings alive and well?

No it's about posting nonsense because he's bored.

Lets tackle the lowest common factor in the concussion battle but ignore the dangers found in combat sport because they are apparently required industries.

Apparently being paid to fight only counts when you're in your underwear.