The General Wrestling Thread

[Xixak]

Ugh WWE needs to realize that making Cena heel and moving away from the PG era will bring back enough hardcore fans to compensate for the Cena T-Shirt-wearing kids and moms that would stop watching.

 

[s@ppisgod]

Ugh WWE needs to realize that making Cena heel and moving away from the PG era will bring back enough hardcore fans to compensate for the Cena T-Shirt-wearing kids and moms that would stop watching.

Their product is garbage, but their business plan is great. Selling to kids makes them more money than selling to adults. Kids buy merch like crazy. Most adults don't. A grown man wearing a wrestling shirt or hat isn't too socially acceptable. And most of you assholes stream PPVs. Kids want to buy Cena shirts. Kids want to watch the PPV. There's more money to be made out of one kid and their parents than there is to make out of five adults, guaranteed. Then you sell the business as "family friendly", and the sponsors are all over it. So who really cares if anyone over the age of 16 with half a brain thinks this is a shitty product? At this point, it's like pointing out plot holes in Spongebob episodes. Who really cares if the end result is making money hand over fist? Cena is champ again, will never turn heel, and should have been done TWICE in the last year. But his 6 year old fanbase doesn't notice, so they're all great ideas. Kids love repetition....
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[Bigpapa42]

Its not even just about merchandise, though. Being family-friendly gets them the kind of sponsors that they couldn't hope to land with a PG13 product, let alone something closer to the Attitude era. Look at who they can get at this point - 7-Eleven, Pepsi, Gillette... Those kind of sponsors mean a lot more money than Slim Jim and the latest video game release.

With some of the problems that the WWE is facing - overall PPV buyrates going down, TV ratings aren't that strong, live attendances aren't that strong, DVD sales are weak, secondary programming seems to be in the dumps - they are not going to mess with those key revenue streams. Sponsors and key merchandise movers are more important to the WWE than ever before. You have to remember that McMahon can't simply do whatever he feels at this point, because he is beholden to those investors. If he decides to do something that is going to cut into those revenue streams that remains strong, he better have a good reason and alternative streams to replace them.

WWE stock is floating around the $9 mark. It was double that a year ago. It tanked partly because they decided to stop paying a dividend, but they aren't doing great business overall. Looking at the most recent investor meeting notes, its not like they have a lot on the horizon that is going to turn things around. They are going to pop a huge buy rate for WM 28 and then what? They are going to continue to lose old stars over the next couple of years, which is what McMahon partly blames for the issues over the past two years.

I hope the WWE makes a change to the product. I am damn near done with it, so its pretty much the only way I'm going to keep bothering with it. I just can't see it.

 

[EmpireWF]

The big partner they have is Mattel which they wouldn't have if this were the attitude era with curses and sex all raunched up.

The best we can hope for is little snippets of smart storylines like we get from Punk.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Let's just be honest with ourselves...the WWE is very comfortable with what they have going on, regardless of all the dips in whatever number you can come up with.

They have 99% of the market share, no competition at all and still make money hand over fist. Could they make more money? Maybe, but that would involve expanding the market, which, considering its current state, just isn't needed and it would go against some of their most important business partners core values to do.

The only thing you can hope for is glimmer's of smart programs like Punk is giving.

It is, what it is.

 

[Bigpapa42]

The big partner they have is Mattel which they wouldn't have if this were the attitude era with curses and sex all raunched up.

The best we can hope for is little snippets of smart storylines like we get from Punk.

Mattel. That's the big one I was trying to think of.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Adults frustrated at a product aimed for kids, is what it comes down to. There is so much great stuff out there, but people don't have the time to invest in finding it. WWE is easy, its on national TV two times per week, so most will stick with that for better or worse.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Adults frustrated at a product aimed for kids, is what it comes down to. There is so much great stuff out there, but people don't have the time to invest in finding it. WWE is easy, its on national TV two times per week, so most will stick with that for better or worse.

When has the WWE not been aimed at kids?...Even in the Attitude era their marketing was directed at kids even though the product was more directed the young-adult viewer.

Even back in the 80's, the WWE was directing their product toward kids while the NWA was basically putting on wrestling shows for people, kid or adult, that liked wrestling shows. The 90's had the WWE still marketing toward kids while WCW and the Indy scene was making shows for people who like wrestling shows.

In the 2000's, the WWE marketing to kids, the Indy scene marketing to those who like wrestling shows, while TNA markets to the mentally disabled and incompetent.

 

[s@ppisgod]

Its not even just about merchandise, though. Being family-friendly gets them the kind of sponsors that they couldn't hope to land with a PG13 product, let alone something closer to the Attitude era. Look at who they can get at this point - 7-Eleven, Pepsi, Gillette... Those kind of sponsors mean a lot more money than Slim Jim and the latest video game release.

With some of the problems that the WWE is facing - overall PPV buyrates going down, TV ratings aren't that strong, live attendances aren't that strong, DVD sales are weak, secondary programming seems to be in the dumps - they are not going to mess with those key revenue streams. Sponsors and key merchandise movers are more important to the WWE than ever before. You have to remember that McMahon can't simply do whatever he feels at this point, because he is beholden to those investors. If he decides to do something that is going to cut into those revenue streams that remains strong, he better have a good reason and alternative streams to replace them.

WWE stock is floating around the $9 mark. It was double that a year ago. It tanked partly because they decided to stop paying a dividend, but they aren't doing great business overall. Looking at the most recent investor meeting notes, its not like they have a lot on the horizon that is going to turn things around. They are going to pop a huge buy rate for WM 28 and then what? They are going to continue to lose old stars over the next couple of years, which is what McMahon partly blames for the issues over the past two years.

I hope the WWE makes a change to the product. I am damn near done with it, so its pretty much the only way I'm going to keep bothering with it. I just can't see it.

The merch is big. It's not as big as the sponsors, but it's still really vital. Point being, PGis the smart way to go for them. More people over their target demo need to realize and accept it. Someone like Empire has, but the majority of people online beg for another Attitude era.
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[EmpireWF]

The funny thing is we believe it's (somewhat easily) possible for them to increase their PPV business by using simple logical means of booking. Easy for us to say no doubt. Still, it doesn't take a genius to figure out why most of the crap they do does not result in people wanting to buy their PPVs.

When they treat the bulk of their guys as shit, who wants to plunk down $50 on a monthly basis?

If they could realize to get behind guys and push them for more than a week or two and create some interesting storylines, they could make more money on PPV...without sacrificing merchandising, house shows, partnerships, sponsors, etc.

There's no reason they can't have a total mixture of styles and angles across the board. Have the young kids making their names (Tyson Kidd, Evan Bourne, those types), have some comedy that doesn't insult anyones intelligence (Santino, Cabana), some legit tag teams, Guys fighting for a midcard belt to prove their worth and take the next step up the card, guys on the cusp of main eventing but not quite there and then you have your main eventers. Throw in guys to fill out the rest of the card like Henry, Khali, Big Show, Kane, etc.

The key point being LOGIC.

But the fuck do I know? I'm just some shmuck net fan right.

 

[Bigpapa42]

Anyone asking for the Attitude Era to make a full return best to careful of what they wish for. There is a real tendency amongst fans to idealize the era and overlook its many many flaws. Far from a "perfect" era. Not to say bringing back elements wouldn't make for a massive improvement in the E's product, but it should really only be elements.

An interesting problem I see in the current WWE product is that there is a fundamental flaw. They heavily target kids, women, and families. Those demographics spend money on merchandise, but they don't necessarily spend money on PPVs. And those PPVs remain a key part of the WWE business model. The buy rates continue to decline yet the WWE becomes more reliant on gimmick PPVs and trying to sell the shows based purely on main matches. I mean, how many SummerSlam matches have been determined so far? Its 5 days away and they have 4 matches set so far. So not only have they moved the product away from the demographic that is most likely buy PPVs but also make little effort in following traditional ways to try to sell the PPV as well.

 

[BigBiss]

Anyone asking for the Attitude Era to make a full return best to careful of what they wish for. There is a real tendency amongst fans to idealize the era and overlook its many many flaws. Far from a "perfect" era. Not to say bringing back elements wouldn't make for a massive improvement in the E's product, but it should really only be elements.

An interesting problem I see in the current WWE product is that there is a fundamental flaw. They heavily target kids, women, and families. Those demographics spend money on merchandise, but they don't necessarily spend money on PPVs. And those PPVs remain a key part of the WWE business model. The buy rates continue to decline yet the WWE becomes more reliant on gimmick PPVs and trying to sell the shows based purely on main matches. I mean, how many SummerSlam matches have been determined so far? Its 5 days away and they have 4 matches set so far. So not only have they moved the product away from the demographic that is most likely buy PPVs but also make little effort in following traditional ways to try to sell the PPV as well.

"The Attitude Era" was also the frist "Attitude Era" (for WWF atleast) what will peak intrest is something new, maybe simulare but new. There was the First ECW and every "next ECW after failed. We had seen it already it took ROH doing something compleatly diffrent to catch attention.

Im pulling for them, The Indy guys have been busting there ass, but untill there is a larger meal on the table we are going to starve waiting for scraps to fall off

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

The Attitude Era is why we are where we are at today.

The Attitude Era was double edged sword. It made Vince a billionaire, but it also create a tv model that demands too much. TOO MANY ANGLES. A segment can barely go by without an angle. This is now the norm because its been that way for 15 years. Promotions used to go MONTHS between running any sort of TV angle. I'm not suggesting that they should turn the clock back to 1972, but there is no need to shoot a half dozen angles per show. Nothing matters anymore.

Fuck the Attitude Era. I was turned off by that shit and it actually drove me away as a fan. Terrible matches, goofy stories, killed the titles, Crash TV, and set the stage for an unsustainable model.

 

[EmpireWF]

Fuck the Attitude Era. I was turned off by that shit and it actually drove me away as a fan. Terrible matches, goofy stories, killed the titles, Crash TV, and set the stage for an unsustainable model.

So you went from 96ish to 2001ish WWF? Quite the black and white.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

So you went from 96ish to 2001ish WWF? Quite the black and white.

I faded out as a fan, and have never really come back all the way. ECW revival had me hooked for a bit, but that was a #3 show. Attitude ended my days of thinking of the WWE as appointment viewing.

 

[JayDizzle]

If Superstars was on a better night/time AND they put some A-Show talent on it once in a while, I'd watch it more.

I'm glad Ziggler's getting more face time on Raw from his early work on there...

...and disappointed that I didn't watch more Masters when I had the chance.

 

[EmpireWF]

I faded out as a fan, and have never really come back all the way. ECW revival had me hooked for a bit, but that was a #3 show. Attitude ended my days of thinking of the WWE as appointment viewing.

I kinda see what you mean about the era.

I was a kid at the time (about 10 or so) and it was awesome living through it at the time (in addition to flipping over to Nitro...man what I wouldn't give to be able to have another wrestling show to flip back and forth with during RAW now).

When I check out old RAW episodes from 97 and 98 on 24/7...it doesn't hold up as well. Sure they have a ton of stars but it very much was crash TV. The main event storylines were usually still fun (because Austin vs. Vince was fucking awesome then)...but it was not as great as I remembered it.

Still, by the time the Radicalz came in 2000, you had them, Jericho, Angle in addition to HHH in his prime, (unfortunately no Austin), Rock arguably in his prime, Undertaker (2000, he left a lot to be desired), Kane was a bad ass, Dudleys in their prime, Edge and Christian, the Hardy's and a few others I'm forgetting. Deep.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I faded out as a fan, and have never really come back all the way. ECW revival had me hooked for a bit, but that was a #3 show. Attitude ended my days of thinking of the WWE as appointment viewing.

Looking back, it was kind of a clusterfuck, but I enjoyed it at the time. You basically sat down from 8 to 11:30. 8-9 was Nitro...then you'd flip over to catch the first 30 minutes of RAW. Then you'd flip back and forth until 11:15 when RAW would end, and WCW would always go to like 11:25.

At the time, the TV format, as it was, needed to be done, and it was fun.

The issue is, the WWE never came back from it.

The hiring of soap opera writers that really have no base in wrestling really kill it, IMO. Every minute of the show is overtly pushing a story...a corny one at that.

Superstars may be the WWE's best "Wrestling Show"...they just throw some guys together and have a match, not necessarily great ones, but whatever. On RAW, that never happens unless its pushing something. On Smackers it happens once in a while.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Summerslam coming up...

My faint prediction.

Punk loses, obviously. Probably Mr. H's costs him the title somehow.

In the following week or weeks, Punk and Mr. H's have a brief feud, but ultimately, Mr. H's is going over, and its probably going to be on RAW, where he basically beats the fuck out of Punker with the sledge.

Punk takes a vacation.

Punk, through all of greatness...the promos, the 5-star match, slight viral campaign that was next level shit (although, only lasted a week lol), the lead up to Summerslam...

...was just there to put over HHH.

Fuck.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Also, I got Morrison to TNA by February.