The General Wrestling Thread

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I can tell you at its base form you can fell a difference between having a draw on top and not, some guys draw some guys dont, some booking draws some dont. WWE has just built up enough die hards its not going to effect there raw rating or ppv buy rates too much either way.

At the base level, namely, the Indy scene...I agree with you, you can see noticeable, tangible evidence...

IMO, at the national level...you can't really gauge it and give it a quantifiable variable. And it goes beyond the MNW era of wrestling where business was at its highest, but business also had tons of guys at the top. I mean, who gets the props for the boom period of the mid-80's NWA? Ric Flair? He was also there for the downturn in the early 90's, too. Hogan was the top guy for the WWE in the 80's...but was also there for a downturn in business in the early-mid 90's.

IMO, the ebb and flow of business changed and the idea of a real draw was nullified by going national.

 

[BigBiss]

At the base level, namely, the Indy scene...I agree with you, you can see noticeable, tangible evidence...

IMO, at the national level...you can't really gauge it and give it a quantifiable variable. And it goes beyond the MNW era of wrestling where business was at its highest, but business also had tons of guys at the top. I mean, who gets the props for the boom period of the mid-80's NWA? Ric Flair? He was also there for the downturn in the early 90's, too. Hogan was the top guy for the WWE in the 80's...but was also there for a downturn in business in the early-mid 90's.

IMO, the ebb and flow of business changed and the idea of a real draw was nullified by going national.

the peaks also gave power to the wrestlers, gave them options out side of wrestling. now vince is happy with the status quoe. only movie stars hes making are for WWE films, TNAs only chance is a Boom to create a rise in the demand for wrestling, Vince has a steady stream of money and wealth and really the only thing that can change that is success

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Moving a needle isn't really "drawing" though...getting a one or two week pop in ratings that doesn't even venture outside of your standard deviation isn't really drawing, IMO. It isn't even a "draw" if they pop a buy rate that isn't outside of their standard deviation (Rock, nor Lesnar popped a rate that was outside of a normal standard deviation...before Rock-Cena...Cena-Michaels popped the highest buyrate at WrestleMania. Plus, the way they promote their business at this point isn't an individual effort, its a group effort...there was essentially three main events at the last WrestleMania. They can give credit to Rocky for popping the buyrate all they want, but we're civilized folks and that conclusion doesn't really hold up, IMO.

Donald Trump vs Vince McMahon is the match you are looking for with the bold.

Even looking back to say, the Monday Night Wars era...everyone says Austin was the biggest draw and star...and to a point, I don't doubt that, but...how is it possible to quantify his drawing power when that era had a record setting number of guys at the top? The WWE had Austin, Rock, HHH, Mick Foley...on the WCW it was Hogan, Nash, Piper, DDP, Goldberg...was a monster period of buyrates and ratings that held up over the long term...but, Austin gets the credit for being the biggest draw...something doesn't compute.

Probably because after that WrestleMania broke records thanks in part to the Tyson boost, business reached new heights with Austin on top. Then after the ill advised Austin heel turn, business steadily declined.

There is no question Austin was the biggest star and biggest draw of that era. Triple H, Foley, HBK, Undertaker, even The Rock, whoever you want to talk about, none of them drew anything like Austin, the numbers bear that out, even if some of them more than drew their share on their own (Rock). Why didn't the Rock ever touch the numbers he did with Austin, with Triple H or Undertaker or whoever else? Because they weren't Austin.

The NWO popped WCW, then Sting & Goldberg legit drew at times, and it all fell apart due to bad booking. It wasn't going to last forever, its always cyclical, but the booking didn't set up the next era of stars and it died as a result.

WWE is better off now, where the brand draws. It's easier this way. I don't know if it was by design, but it's a better model. Austin helped them reach that point that biss is talking about, where there are die hards now that are likely never going away. Hogan didn't achieve that. WWF nearly died at points in between Hogan & Austin. Without Austin, business isn't nearly as good in the Cena era, but it's healthy as fuck and in no danger of folding up shop.

Austin is the reason Vince is still in business, Austin is the reason he was able to go public, and Austin is the reason the brand is so strong. That's why I say Austin is the biggest star in the history of the business. He not only peaked higher than Hogan, and drew more money than Hogan, but he left the company in far better shape when he left.

 

[BigBiss]

Also I think good Booking has done more to draw then the top stars themselfs just makes booking ez when you have more top stars to work with

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

At the base level, namely, the Indy scene...I agree with you, you can see noticeable, tangible evidence...

IMO, at the national level...you can't really gauge it and give it a quantifiable variable. And it goes beyond the MNW era of wrestling where business was at its highest, but business also had tons of guys at the top. I mean, who gets the props for the boom period of the mid-80's NWA? Ric Flair? He was also there for the downturn in the early 90's, too. Hogan was the top guy for the WWE in the 80's...but was also there for a downturn in business in the early-mid 90's.

IMO, the ebb and flow of business changed and the idea of a real draw was nullified by going national.

Nobody can draw forever.

It's not a indictment on Hogan or anybody else because eventually they stop drawing.

Hogan left WWF, and immediately drew in New Japan. Then he went to WCW and immediately drew. It wasn't until the end of WCW that Hogan didn't matter any more. He popped TNA for like two weeks, and he drew just under 3,000 to an indie show in NY. Other than that, he means nothing today. That takes nothing away from what he already did.

 

[JimLeavy59]

If the WWE were smart they would sign Mark Angelosetti aka Mr.Touchdown and bring him in as Jack Swaggers little brother let him keep the gimmick and attire.[h=2][/h][h=2][/h]

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

If the WWE were smart they would sign Mark Angelosetti aka Mr.Touchdown and bring him in as Jack Swaggers little brother let him keep the gimmick and attire.[h=2][/h][h=2][/h]

I have 0% doubt that this guy is going to eventually end up on national TV.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Donald Trump vs Vince McMahon is the match you are looking for with the bold.




Probably because after that WrestleMania broke records thanks in part to the Tyson boost, business reached new heights with Austin on top. Then after the ill advised Austin heel turn, business steadily declined.

There is no question Austin was the biggest star and biggest draw of that era. Triple H, Foley, HBK, Undertaker, even The Rock, whoever you want to talk about, none of them drew anything like Austin, the numbers bear that out, even if some of them more than drew their share on their own (Rock). Why didn't the Rock ever touch the numbers he did with Austin, with Triple H or Undertaker or whoever else? Because they weren't Austin.

The NWO popped WCW, then Sting & Goldberg legit drew at times, and it all fell apart due to bad booking. It wasn't going to last forever, its always cyclical, but the booking didn't set up the next era of stars and it died as a result.

WWE is better off now, where the brand draws. It's easier this way. I don't know if it was by design, but it's a better model. Austin helped them reach that point that biss is talking about, where there are die hards now that are likely never going away. Hogan didn't achieve that. WWF nearly died at points in between Hogan & Austin. Without Austin, business isn't nearly as good in the Cena era, but it's healthy as fuck and in no danger of folding up shop.

Austin is the reason Vince is still in business, Austin is the reason he was able to go public, and Austin is the reason the brand is so strong. That's why I say Austin is the biggest star in the history of the business. He not only peaked higher than Hogan, and drew more money than Hogan, but he left the company in far better shape when he left.

When the WWE was pulling those 6's during the ratings war...it wasn't just Austin at the top...hell, Austin's more influential runs at the top where when RAW was behind Nitro. Hell, it was right after the Undertaker won the title they pulled that 7.2. When they pulled that famous 8.1, the main event starred EVERYONE (it was Stone Cold, the Rock, H's, Taker, Vince, and Shane.

Austin was the top guy during an era of wrestling where the wrestling product had a very high demand and a very large market share. Was that on Austin or was that just the demand for the product. I think we say "Austin was the biggest draw everrrrr" but really don't have too much to quantify it outside of him being the top guy during the biggest period. I just think the measures to quantify such a thing are a bit skewed.

 

[JimLeavy59]

The WWE really should let guys use the superkick I'm not sure if anyone on the main roster uses it.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

When the WWE was pulling those 6's during the ratings war...it wasn't just Austin at the top...hell, Austin's more influential runs at the top where when RAW was behind Nitro. Hell, it was right after the Undertaker won the title they pulled that 7.2. When they pulled that famous 8.1, the main event starred EVERYONE (it was Stone Cold, the Rock, H's, Taker, Vince, and Shane.

Austin was the top guy during an era of wrestling where the wrestling product had a very high demand and a very large market share. Was that on Austin or was that just the demand for the product. I think we say "Austin was the biggest draw everrrrr" but really don't have too much to quantify it outside of him being the top guy during the biggest period. I just think the measures to quantify such a thing are a bit skewed.

What do you mean we have nothing to quantify it? Business boomed to unprecedented heights after they gave him the ball, and then it fell back down to earth after they turned him heel. And then not a single person you named in that post ever drew as well without Austin ever again unless you count Vince vs Trump or Rock vs Cena at the WrestleMania's, but I think we all agree that WrestleMania draws as a collective these days. Austin drew his WrestleMania's because he was Austin, not because he was Austin at WrestleMania.

Ratings, buyrates, revenue, you name it, you can quantify Austin as a draw buy any measure you wish to use. I think WWE overtakes WCW at some point anyway, because WCW was going to self destruct regardless, but Austin won that war way before WCW did the majority of their self inflicted damage.

 

[SuperKevin]

The WWE really should let guys use the superkick I'm not sure if anyone on the main roster uses it.

It's sure as hell a lot cooler than Wade Barrett's short armed elbow

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

The WWE really should let guys use the superkick I'm not sure if anyone on the main roster uses it.

Too soon, HBK is still a semi regular in the "Universe".

You have a better chance of seeing Punk pull off a Pepsi Plunge.

 

(no you don't)

 

[EmpireWF]

Some announcement about Lawler tonight on RAW.

No Flair.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

What do you mean we have nothing to quantify it? Business boomed to unprecedented heights after they gave him the ball, and then it fell back down to earth after they turned him heel. And then not a single person you named in that post ever drew as well without Austin ever again unless you count Vince vs Trump or Rock vs Cena at the WrestleMania's, but I think we all agree that WrestleMania draws as a collective these days. Austin drew his WrestleMania's because he was Austin, not because he was Austin at WrestleMania.

Ratings, buyrates, revenue, you name it, you can quantify Austin as a draw buy any measure you wish to use. I think WWE overtakes WCW at some point anyway, because WCW was going to self destruct regardless, but Austin won that war way before WCW did the majority of their self inflicted damage.

You have nothing to quantify it by...there is nothing substantial outside of t-shirt sales that really claim Austin to being the reason for the biggest boom in wrestling. Business boomed for EVERYONE during the same era Austin had the ball. It was an inflation of the market share of wrestling. As I mentioned, the WWE had several stars during the same era that were popping ratings and were the "top guy" during the boom. Even when WCW was starting to lose the battle they were pulling near-high ratings and buyrates. When Triple H was champion he was popping top WrestleMania buyrates and 7 ratings at the top.

People simply credit Austin for the boom period and high market share of the product, when, it was more of a group effort by all involved on the national level...both by the WWF and WCW.

 

[BigBiss]

This thing we are doing with these people that may or may not Draw http://acwtourdates.blogspot.com/2012/08/lsc-on-11-11-12-at-mohawk.html

 

[krulmichael]

I will say that I really dig Cesaro's uppercut finisher. The few I've seen it performed on looks really nasty (the angles they caught last night of Gabriel on the receiving end were pretty good).

 

[SuperKevin]

I will say that I really dig Cesaro's uppercut finisher. The few I've seen it performed on looks really nasty (the angles they caught last night of Gabriel on the receiving end were pretty good).

It's more of a setup move. His finisher is The Neutralizer which is pretty cool as well

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

You have nothing to quantify it by...there is nothing substantial outside of t-shirt sales that really claim Austin to being the reason for the biggest boom in wrestling. Business boomed for EVERYONE during the same era Austin had the ball. It was an inflation of the market share of wrestling. As I mentioned, the WWE had several stars during the same era that were popping ratings and were the "top guy" during the boom. Even when WCW was starting to lose the battle they were pulling near-high ratings and buyrates. When Triple H was champion he was popping top WrestleMania buyrates and 7 ratings at the top.

People simply credit Austin for the boom period and high market share of the product, when, it was more of a group effort by all involved on the national level...both by the WWF and WCW.

The biggest boom in the history of wrestling started when Austin beat HBK at WM with Tyson as the ref. The Austin led WWF blew past WCW and broke all sorts of records and drew more money than any other period of any other promotion ever. The biggest boom in the history of wrestling effectively ended at WrestleMania 2001 when Austin turned heel and the crowd took a shit on it.

What more do you need to "quantify" it? Where is the disconnect? Austin drew more money than anybody in the history of the business over his five year run on top. An he was the catalyst, end of story, not even debate worthy, because things got hot when he was put on top, and didn't cool off until they turned him heel and gave The Rock the ball as the top face, a move that backfired badly and that the company tried to rectify but was unable to recover from.

Of course those other guys contributed, but wrestling was as hot as it was because of Austin. What did Foley ever draw before the Austin boom? The Rock got the ball in 2001 and things dipped, until they panicked and reversed the Austin turn. Triple H? Lol please. Who else? Michaels? Just stop. Undertaker? Again, his biggest drawing years were as an Austin foil.

Austin drew the most money, drew the biggest buyrates (until the "collective era" WM shows of today), sold the most merch, and sold out the most house shows. What more do you want, lol.

 

[IamMedellin]

The biggest boom in the history of wrestling started when Austin beat HBK at WM with Tyson as the ref. The Austin led WWF blew past WCW and broke all sorts of records and drew more money than any other period of any other promotion ever. The biggest boom in the history of wrestling effectively ended at WrestleMania 2001 when Austin turned heel and the crowd took a shit on it.

wait...but wasnt there a period during that time where Austin was hurt and was out from survivor series until the summer... they put the belt on Bigshow and then Triple H until backlash... did business dip during that period?

 

[EmpireWF]

Spanish announce table sighting