The General Wrestling Thread

[s@ppisgod]

They shouldn't even mention TNA right now, unless it's as a threat to send someone back to the minors. They're doing a fine job of sinking that ship themselves. Once they go under, guys like Styles, Roode, Aries, Joe, even Kaz should be no-brainers to begin a new class of NXT. Maybe the Dudleys for a little nostalgia.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Raiding the indies is the best thing WWE ever did in terms of restocking the roster. It's not like it we weren't screaming for it for years. They waited five years too long on these guys and didn't get some of them until they were 30+. Bryan, Cesaro, 2/3 of the Shield, 2/3 of the Wyatt's, these are some of the hottest acts in the company, and there are more in developmental ready to come up any time (PAC, Chris Hero) and even more waiting to start (Callihan, Del Sol).

Second gen works out a lot, Axel, Wyatt, Reigns, Rhodes, a million other, Steamboat, another Rotunda & Flair in developmental, etc. They grow up with the lifestyle which is always a hard adjustment for outsiders, plus they obviously get good advice and have a good understanding of the business before they ever take a bump.

International should be limited to Europe. Lucha guys can't adjust to the style and they have a stigma against Asians that pigeonhole them to racist comedy gimmicks most of the time. Euro's adjust best to the style and are taken seriously.

Seeking out models & bodybuilders is mostly a fail, and they are getting away from that. They will keep doing it for the women, but that doesn't really matter because the women will never draw serious WWE level money anyway and since the focus is looks, cycling in bikini models is probably the best strategy honestly, as long as you have a good worker or two in the mix so the matches aren't completely terrible.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

They shouldn't even mention TNA right now, unless it's as a threat to send someone back to the minors. They're doing a fine job of sinking that ship themselves. Once they go under, guys like Styles, Roode, Aries, Joe, even Kaz should be no-brainers to begin a new class of NXT. Maybe the Dudleys for a little nostalgia.

Austin Aries is a no brainer, he's elite level at everything and they missed the boat badly when they passed on him. Roode would have no problems. I'd laugh if they sent Joe to Florida, but I bet they would those crazy fuckers. Kaz better hope Steph doesn't remember him, that dumbass.

I'd think they'd be all over Bully, assuming the homophobic thing blew over. Devon is well liked, so why not.

But it's like you say, why play that hand publicly? No reason to say anything nice.

 

[ThomasTomasz]

But it's like you say, why play that hand publicly? No reason to say anything nice.

That wasn't my thinking. Knowing how things make it around in not just this business, but any other sports and entertainment thing, he should have said nothing at all. You don't want to alienate guys who are currently there who could come in for you.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Raiding the indies is the best thing WWE ever did in terms of restocking the roster. It's not like it we weren't screaming for it for years. They waited five years too long on these guys and didn't get some of them until they were 30+. Bryan, Cesaro, 2/3 of the Shield, 2/3 of the Wyatt's, these are some of the hottest acts in the company, and there are more in developmental ready to come up any time (PAC, Chris Hero) and even more waiting to start (Callihan, Del Sol).

Second gen works out a lot, Axel, Wyatt, Reigns, Rhodes, a million other, Steamboat, another Rotunda & Flair in developmental, etc. They grow up with the lifestyle which is always a hard adjustment for outsiders, plus they obviously get good advice and have a good understanding of the business before they ever take a bump.

International should be limited to Europe. Lucha guys can't adjust to the style and they have a stigma against Asians that pigeonhole them to racist comedy gimmicks most of the time. Euro's adjust best to the style and are taken seriously.

Seeking out models & bodybuilders is mostly a fail, and they are getting away from that. They will keep doing it for the women, but that doesn't really matter because the women will never draw serious WWE level money anyway and since the focus is looks, cycling in bikini models is probably the best strategy honestly, as long as you have a good worker or two in the mix so the matches aren't completely terrible.

Best place to find women...the Lingerie Football League or any incarnate of it since.

In-shape, athletic women, good looks, that they can develop their personality and in-ring stuff. The Indies have a good bunch of chicks, but lets keep it real, they rarely have the look the WWE wants.

They haven't locked in on bodybuilders in a long while. I like that the WWE is going back to old school scouting that is time honored...the Indies/Territories and Football players. You can bring in the occasional strong man or whatever, and by proxy, they'll get better because you have seasoned Indie performers that likely have trained numerous wrestlers already and football players who are superior athletes. The football players will help push the Indies guys in the gym while the Indie guys push the football players in the ring. Its a great relationship and will develop a really solid base for the future of the product.

 

[s@ppisgod]

What's different about luchas today? Guys like Mysterio, Psychosis, Juvy, etc made the transition and looked good and worked with the lower card gringos fine in WCW. But since then, there seems to be no pipeline between the luchas and bigger American promotions. With the exception of Sin Cara, who flopped hard.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Yeah, I forgot about football players & amateur wrestlers. That's the most fertile ground of all historically.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Austin Aries is a no brainer, he's elite level at everything and they missed the boat badly when they passed on him. Roode would have no problems. I'd laugh if they sent Joe to Florida, but I bet they would those crazy fuckers. Kaz better hope Steph doesn't remember him, that dumbass.

I'd think they'd be all over Bully, assuming the homophobic thing blew over. Devon is well liked, so why not.

But it's like you say, why play that hand publicly? No reason to say anything nice.

Anyone who has been in the WWE, I can see them having an open invitation to come back. Definitely The Dudleyz, especially with both being in the best shape of their careers. Include Sting in that, as he's had an open invite for almost two decades.

I am not sure the WWE takes a ton of talent otherwise. I mean, I can see Joe, but he's already gotten the Kevin Steen treatment of "we really like you...but...you're fat...you need to lose a lot of weight" despite both coming highly recommended by several people already in the company. Maybe they sign him, and basically throw him in a gym for 6 months before they even debut him and just have him work NXT house shows. The new facilities in Florida make scenarios like that a real reality. They've had numerous shots to bring in Aries and passed a few times.

I would think a guy like Bobby Roode fits right in, I'm just not sure anyone that matters is even aware of who he is. Daniels and Kaz I could see easily working ROH and PWG with the WWE not even giving each a look, sadly. I am not sure if anyone that matters has much of an opinion of Styles.

I am sure a ton of them will come recommended by people on the outside of the circle, say, Jamie Noble, Mick Foley, Jim Ross, etc, but how many of those guys would get signed?

 

[s@ppisgod]

Best place to find women...the Lingerie Football League or any incarnate of it since.

In-shape, athletic women, good looks, that they can develop their personality and in-ring stuff. The Indies have a good bunch of chicks, but lets keep it real, they rarely have the look the WWE wants.

They haven't locked in on bodybuilders in a long while. I like that the WWE is going back to old school scouting that is time honored...the Indies/Territories and Football players. You can bring in the occasional strong man or whatever, and by proxy, they'll get better because you have seasoned Indie performers that likely have trained numerous wrestlers already and football players who are superior athletes. The football players will help push the Indies guys in the gym while the Indie guys push the football players in the ring. Its a great relationship and will develop a really solid base for the future of the product.

Yeah, we've long had the "why isn't wrestler X in WWE?" talk for a long, long time about the guys who are currently tearing it up. It took entirely too long for them to come to the change. Their scouting and developmental was atrocious in the 00's, and they seemingly kept things the same as if the results weren't terrible. With Claudio especially. He wasn't the biggest talent, but he was a no-brainer. Someone like Black got in kinda early, Danielson always had offers on the table IIRC, but Claudio seemed like a guy destined to be over-looked forever.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

What's different about luchas today? Guys like Mysterio, Psychosis, Juvy, etc made the transition and looked good and worked with the lower card gringos fine in WCW. But since then, there seems to be no pipeline between the luchas and bigger American promotions. With the exception of Sin Cara, who flopped hard.

Mysterio is an American. He's a true outlier. Same with Eddie, for example. They both spoke great English.

Alberto Del Rio is a real Mexican...but again, speaks great English.

The other guys...they didn't speak very good English and also got their start in the US in a totally different landscape. They were slow to warm. They debuted in ECW where...who cared about their ability to talk? They just featured their in-ring work. For the most part, same in WCW. Throw in characters like LA Parka in there, too, but he was obviously more charismatic.

In the WWE though, its imperative you talk...unless you're The Undertaker or Brock Lesnar or something. If you can't, you're way behind. Sin Cara's whole gimmick revolves around not being able to talk, but his charisma just does not translate at all in the States. The Great Khali barely speaks audible English, but he's 7'10" and quickly dissolved into a comedy act...so, it works for him. But if you're a 5'4" flippy spic...what is the WWE going to do with you, really?

Plus, it seems as though the WWE feels they can put anyone in a mask if they need to. They have Epico in a mask in developmental. Hunico, too. Once it got time to actually be in the WWE, the masks came off quickly. They could have debuted El Generico in a mask and he's so good, it would have worked great. But, you take the mask off, he's the same guy, and they can take him to the moon. They put Ricardo Rodriguez under a mask for obvious reasons to do job duty occasionally.

Masks could sell hand over fist for the WWE, but they still get plenty of burn on Sin Cara and Rey Mysterio masks and they either don't work or are bums...so, I am sure they are content with that.

 

[s@ppisgod]

Didn't include Sting as with the recent rumors, he's all but a given anymore.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

What's different about luchas today? Guys like Mysterio, Psychosis, Juvy, etc made the transition and looked good and worked with the lower card gringos fine in WCW. But since then, there seems to be no pipeline between the luchas and bigger American promotions. With the exception of Sin Cara, who flopped hard.

Well, the lucha boom happened in 1994 with AAA, when all of those guys you mentioned plus a few others were young and coming up at the same time. So WCW took a chance on something that was hot, and those guys were super talented and it worked. Mostly because WCW let them work their style.

WWE tried to copy, not many people remember, but they had the Super Astros show that bombed, because they filmed it in front of RAW crowds at tapings in front of people who didn't treat them like stars because they didn't now who they were. So of course, "they cant work", etc. This is Vince we're talking about, so forget just letting them work their style. He wanted to unmask El Hijo Del Santo, for fucks sake. Talk about not understanding the culture.

And remember, it took Rey a while to get into the WWE. It took Vince YEARS to accept the fact he was a legit star, even when he was drawing money for him. But you are talking about a guy who is elite level charisma & talent, who is an American who speaks English and understands American style wrestling psychology.

So when guys come from Mexico now, they have a million things working against them. The psychology is massively different. Turn on lucha one weekend and watch for a few minutes. The way they sell, everything is different. Plus they work the right side of the body, and in the rest of the world you work the left side. So that's a big switch, you have to unlearn years of habits. Plus, if you don't speak English, forget it. Another massive barrier. How many Mexicans succeded since Mil Mascaras while not speaking English? Psicosis? Only because he was Rey's base. La Parka is a god dam charisma machine and a legit mega star in Mexico, and he couldn't even get any traction here.

 

[s@ppisgod]

Mysterio is an American. He's a true outlier. Same with Eddie, for example. They both spoke great English.

Alberto Del Rio is a real Mexican...but again, speaks great English.

The other guys...they didn't speak very good English and also got their start in the US in a totally different landscape. They were slow to warm. They debuted in ECW where...who cared about their ability to talk? They just featured their in-ring work. For the most part, same in WCW. Throw in characters like LA Parka in there, too, but he was obviously more charismatic.

In the WWE though, its imperative you talk...unless you're The Undertaker or Brock Lesnar or something. If you can't, you're way behind. Sin Cara's whole gimmick revolves around not being able to talk, but his charisma just does not translate at all in the States. The Great Khali barely speaks audible English, but he's 7'10" and quickly dissolved into a comedy act...so, it works for him. But if you're a 5'4" flippy spic...what is the WWE going to do with you, really?

Isn't there a spot of Main Event for a short lucha to work a nice lite spot-fest with Kofi or Gabriel or Primo/Epico and sell a few masks? Hell, they found time for Yoshi Tatsu in a similar role not too long ago sans mask.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Isn't there a spot of Main Event for a short lucha to work a nice lite spot-fest with Kofi or Gabriel or Primo/Epico and sell a few masks? Hell, they found time for Yoshi Tatsu in a similar role not too long ago sans mask.

That is pretty much where Sin Cara is working these days. They'll have him flip around with Jack Swagger, Wade Barrett, Antonio Cesaro, etc for 10 minutes on Main Event.

Plus, they have some other flippy fucks coming through developmental that will soon make Sin Cara unneeded, especially for the size of the contract he is sure to have.

 

[s@ppisgod]

Well, the lucha boom happened in 1994 with AAA, when all of those guys you mentioned plus a few others were young and coming up at the same time. So WCW took a chance on something that was hot, and those guys were super talented and it worked. Mostly because WCW let them work their style.

WWE tried to copy, not many people remember, but they had the Super Astros show that bombed, because they filmed it in front of RAW crowds at tapings in front of people who didn't treat them like stars because they didn't now who they were. So of course, "they cant work", etc. This is Vince we're talking about, so forget just letting them work their style. He wanted to unmask El Hijo Del Santo, for fucks sake. Talk about not understanding the culture.

And remember, it took Rey a while to get into the WWE. It took Vince YEARS to accept the fact he was a legit star, even when he was drawing money for him. But you are talking about a guy who is elite level charisma & talent, who is an American who speaks English and understands American style wrestling psychology.

So when guys come from Mexico now, they have a million things working against them. The psychology is massively different. Turn on lucha one weekend and watch for a few minutes. The way they sell, everything is different. Plus they work the right side of the body, and in the rest of the world you work the left side. So that's a big switch, you have to unlearn years of habits. Plus, if you don't speak English, forget it. Another massive barrier. How many Mexicans succeded since Mil Mascaras while not speaking English? Psicosis? Only because he was Rey's base. La Parka is a god dam charisma machine and a legit mega star in Mexico, and he couldn't even get any traction here.

Yes, but with their developmental being as big and strong and healthy as ever, why not try and tap into Mexico's talent? They clearly have time to be patient, and are being plenty so with many of their developmental roster. There's plenty of athletic guys with loads of in-ring talent down there, who could spend 2-3 years learning to work a more American-friendly style and speak quasi-passable English.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Why bring in a flippy Mexican that can't speak English when you can go out and sign Pac or you can go out and sign Ricochet? There are plenty of Americans who can work what the WWE sees as a "lucha" style or flippy bastard and you don't have the language barrier.

Who down in Mexico right now could come up into the WWE and even with 2-3 years of development (and rarely anyone gets that much time...3 years is a LONG time...Hero has been in developmental like a year and a half and that's a long time for someone to be in developmental). Mexico has some really good workers, but which of them could the WWE really make money off of?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Yes, but with their developmental being as big and strong and healthy as ever, why not try and tap into Mexico's talent? They clearly have time to be patient, and are being plenty so with many of their developmental roster. There's plenty of athletic guys with loads of in-ring talent down there, who could spend 2-3 years learning to work a more American-friendly style and speak quasi-passable English.

I don't disagree with you, but with the way they treat these guys when they sign them, there is no point. By the time they strip them down and pound it into them that they don't know how to work, these guys lose confidence and are a shell of themselves.

I think part of what killed Sin Cara was that they guy was clearly nervous and was shitting his pants every time out. Probably because he was told don't do this, don't do that, you don't know how to sell, etc.

If i'm hiring La Sombra, who is 23, tall, has a great body, and is every bit as athletic as Sin Cara, i'm telling him to not change a fucking thing. Go be La Sombra. Over time, he'll adjust as needed. Dolike WCW did and hire a handful and let them work exclusively with each other until they adjust.

But it will never happen. They'd probably take his mask off immediately. Then eliminate half his moveset. Then break him down until he lost his mojo. At that point, you might as well have just hired a white guy who was half as talented, because that's what you end up with.

They should stick with Americans & Euros.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

LOL

http://www.wrestlingforum.com/suggestions-help/893985-tna-section.html

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

To be fair, as W2B mentioned...the WWE doesn't sign these guys in bunches to work with each other (remember when they were going to hire Averno to work with him?)...which hurts the guys that can't get past the language barrier and are working with guys that are just not used to that style. There are very few wrestlers in the WWE who could really work with Sin Cara NOW, nevermind when he first showed up.

That is why his first real program came with Chavo...one of the few guys who can speak Spanish...they teamed him with Mysterio, had him with Del Rio and Hunico. Problem is, there aren't enough of them AND there are not enough of them low on the card.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

And it didn't help that Chavo was insecure about his spot and sandbagged the poor guy.

Allegedly.