Top 10 GOAT Heavyweight Champs

[Liquidrob]

What about Larry Holmes? Holmes was a great fighter. 21 title defenses, second to only Joe Louis.

Mike took the title from Trevor Berbick, who also beat Larry Holmes and Ali, albeit Ali was over the hill.

You mention Spinks, who was a 4 time LHW champion and was the HW champion as well.

Mike Tyson also bet Holmes who had 21 successfull title defenses, second to only Joe Louis. Holmes also beat Ali, and Ken Norton who is another HOF champion not getting much conversation here today. Holmes was real.

Holmes BTW also beat Leon Spinks, who in turn also beat Ali.

Holmes was done

 

[FirstTimer]

LMAO that +,-,>,< list was hella funny. It was meant to be a new sort of Mornington Crescent game you fucken idiot. I bet you don't even know what that is. It's ok, you can spend the next few hours figuring that one out only to find out what a complete waste of time it is....because you're a fucking dumbass! LMAO

WHy would I care what it is at all? It was a dumb fucking idea to begin with. That's the point. I don't need to take anytime at all to make that evaluation.

It's funny how you try to knock my hystorical perspective and you haven't said anything more than Tyson>....STFU you ignorant bloody twat. :kickballs:

Actually it was Frazier>Tyson. Also I LOL at brinign up Tyson beating Holmes. Tyson dragged Holmes out of retirement with a big purse two years after Holmes last fight. Tyson beat 1988 Holmes. Not the Holmes from the early 1980's when he was in his prime. Dumb ass.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

HA HA HA HA!

No, the fights were fixed...what don't you understand about that? I am reporting your post to the mods, because of its stupidity. Because Jack Sharkey took a dive against Carnera, is that supposed to reflect well on Carnera's boxing acumen, because the guy that took the dive was a good fighter?

Screw you, Jack Sharkey himself denied taking a dive. There has been no definative proof Sharkey took a dive. Why do you think I mentioned him first. I was very much hoping you would take the bait...no pun intended with his name...lol

I'm so glad you took the time to google Sharkey v Carnera. So tell me wise sir proove to me now that Sharkey took a dive. Show me the actual proof he took a dive, you ignorant fuck.

 

[Senser81]

Ken Norton who is another HOF champion not getting much conversation here today.

Ken Norton was a very good fighter, but he probably didn't win enough big bouts to be among the top 10. He also was knocked out by The Great White Hopeless in the first round. Ouch!

 

[Senser81]

Screw you, Jack Sharkey himself denied taking a dive. There has been no definative proof Sharkey took a dive. Why do you think I mentioned him first. I was very much hoping you would take the bait...no pun intended with his name...lol

I'm so glad you took the time to google Sharkey v Carnera. So tell me wise sir proove to me now that Sharkey took a dive. Show me the actual proof he took a dive, you ignorant fuck.

LOL...its not like I'm unearthing 'new evidence'. I thought it was common knowledge among boxing historians that Carnera was a paper champion. The only fights Carnera won were fixed fights. If they weren't, he lost. Sharkey had already beaten Carnera once, then took a dive in the rematch. Reports of the second Sharkey-Carnera fight indicate that Carnera's knockout punch didn't even connect with Sharkey's jaw. Don't believe me? Then read any of Budd Schulberg's boxing books.

I don't understand your anger. You were the one who listed Carnera among the 'tough fighters' that Joe Louis defeated. I called you out on your blatant mistake. And now YOU are accusing ME of not knowing what I'm talking about?!

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Holmes was done

Really? He had nothing left in the tank?

So how did he go on to beat Ray Mercer when he was on his 18-0 in streak and blowing everybodies head off?

Or how did Holmes a year later stand toe to toe with a primed champion in holyfield?

Holmes wasn't nearly done yet. Tyson was in his prime and blasting Holmes block before the TKO in the 4th round. It was more Tyson was in his prime and it was Holmes was done. Holmes had 21 wins after Tyson.

But I will admit Holmes wasn't as good as he might have been 7 or even 5 years earlier. But he was still a very solid fighter.

 

[Senser81]

Frazier was also better than Iron Mike, Mike folded under the pressure and if he wasnt the bully he got bounced, his 'big wins' were not even that good

Even if he didn't have many (any?) big wins like Frazier had, I give Tyson credit for unifying the Heavyweight Title. The division was a mess immediately preceding Tyson, and it was a mess (and has been a mess) since Tyson was put in prison. Tyson took on all comers. Compare that to Vladimir Klitschko, who backs out of a fight if he has a hangnail.

 

[dell71]

Mike folded under the pressure and if he wasnt the bully he got bounced, his 'big wins' were not even that good

Here is the big problem with trying to figure where Tyson ranks on these lists. Watching him in his prime, he had the skill to beat anyone that's ever stepped into the ring. For a time his defense was, as he himself put it, impregnable. He had one punch knock out power in both hands. He's also never given enough credit for just how fast his hands were. But the above statement is so true. He never beat any fighter that wasn't already scared of him. Well, maybe Botha, but I'd hardly call that a major accomplishment.

Using any form of statistics to justify ranking one guy over another is ridiculous, this is boxing not baseball (or any other team sport for that matter). So what Tyson had more wins & KOs than Frazier. Who did he have them against? Look carefully at Tyson's record and you'll see for the first few years of his career he would often fight every 2 or 3 weeks against nobodies. He won the title at the end of his 2nd year as a pro, and it was already his 28th fight. So I can get with the notion that Tyson was a better fighter than Frazier because he was faster, more skilled and stronger than Frazier but I can't use his 50 wins & 44 KOs compared to Smokin' Joe's 32 wins & 27 KOs.

As far as Foreman goes, I think he deserves to be ranked highly but this notion of how technically gifted a fighter he was is ridiculous. He was stronger than just about any other fighter and his power, and like Tyson, intimidation, were huge for him. He was never hard to hit, if you let your hands go. The problem was you knew what was coming back if you did. During his prime, he hardly had a jab or anything else that normally set opponents up, just pure power. Look at the Ali fight, that was really the first time anyone hit back. And Ali only did so in the late stages of each round. Before he got knocked out, he wasn't using any real boxing technique, he just wailed away because he knew, or thought he knew, that Ali would fall over like all the rest. There was no plan B and no recognition of what Ali was trying to do. As an old man, Foreman still relied on that power. He didn't get out of the way of any punches. He just kept throwing his until he landed the knockout.

Oh, I do agree that Marciano is way overrated. Like Tyson, he beat no one, except some name fighters well past 40 (Joe Louis was 137 years old when they fought ). He was also really small. He went roughly 185 lbs. Since there was no cruiserweight division back then, he fought as a heavyweight. So, if I were ranking these guys based on how they'd do against one another I'd have Rocky kinda low on the list. What elevates him is the undefeated record. But...

Show me a fighter whose undefeated and I'll show you a fighter who hasn't fought anybody.

BTW, if you're wondering who Bimstein is, he trained a list of champions as long as your arm, including Marciano for a time. And he was one of Angelo Dundee's mentors.

Joe Louis did originally fight a string of fighters dubbed "the bum of the club." However, that string refers specifically to his defenses from December '40 to March '42 while Louis held the title from '37 to '49.

 

[dell71]

Really? He had nothing left in the tank?

So how did he go on to beat Ray Mercer when he was on his 18-0 in streak and blowing everybodies head off?

Or how did Holmes a year later stand toe to toe with a primed champion in holyfield?

Holmes wasn't nearly done yet. Tyson was in his prime and blasting Holmes block before the TKO in the 4th round. It was more Tyson was in his prime and it was Holmes was done. Holmes had 21 wins after Tyson.

But I will admit Holmes wasn't as good as he might have been 7 or even 5 years earlier. But he was still a very solid fighter.

Holmes was done. Mercer is one of the more overrated fighters ever and just about everyone else Holmes fought on his comeback was a tomato can.

 

[Liquidrob]

Even if he didn't have many (any?) big wins like Frazier had, I give Tyson credit for unifying the Heavyweight Title. The division was a mess immediately preceding Tyson, and it was a mess (and has been a mess) since Tyson was put in prison. Tyson took on all comers. Compare that to Vladimir Klitschko, who backs out of a fight if he has a hangnail.

yeah, tyson was amazing to watch before jail and clearly the best in a bad division, I know its not his fault he didnt have anyone to really challenege him, but he really gets inflated by a lot of fans just because it was awesome to watch him destroy people

ali had a bunch of guys to build his legacy with, if frazier wasnt around ali wouldnt be seen as great as he was just because those fights were classics

mike was just a head case and never really had to dig down deep to beat anyone, always dominated, but once you bullied him back he folded to many times, I know this was post jail, but thats what we have to go by

 

[Senser81]

He never beat any fighter that wasn't already scared of him. Well, maybe Botha, but I'd hardly call that a major accomplishment.

What about Peter McNeeley? Anyone thinking that McNeeley was scared of Tyson must have a big dump in their pants.

So, if I were ranking these guys based on how they'd do against one another I'd have Rocky kinda low on the list. What elevates him is the undefeated record. But...

Agree. If the criteria was "How would the boxers do against one another if they all fought each other in their prime?", then I would say the ranking would be different. I, for one, wouldn't have Lennox Lewis anywhere near the top 10.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

LOL...its not like I'm unearthing 'new evidence'. I thought it was common knowledge among boxing historians that Carnera was a paper champion. The only fights Carnera won were fixed fights. If they weren't, he lost. Sharkey had already beaten Carnera once, then took a dive in the rematch. Reports of the second Sharkey-Carnera fight indicate that Carnera's knockout punch didn't even connect with Sharkey's jaw. Don't believe me? Then read any of Budd Schulberg's boxing books.

I don't understand your anger. You were the one who listed Carnera among the 'tough fighters' that Joe Louis defeated. I called you out on your blatant mistake. And now YOU are accusing ME of not knowing what I'm talking about?!

It's because Carnera had questionable associations, and many rumors of fixed fights. I'm very aware many of his fights were widely considered fixes. But the fact still remains that even with those rumors/fixes Carnera was considered a very hard hitter. He wasn't a pushover is all I'm saying.

But I'll give you that Carnera was a paper champion, that's fine by me. As if he alone discounts the rest of the boxers Joe Louis faced for 11 years and 25 title defenses...which BTW carnera wasn't part of his champinship defenses anyhow.

The "Bum of the month club" as it's called were a string of boxers Joe Louis faught when his record title defenses made it seem that there were no good fighters left. Fact is there were still some good fighters in that very small group. Joe Louis was just too smooth and powerfull to stop.

As if Ali didn't fight some under-quallified contenders in his day.

 

[Senser81]

It's because Carnera had questionable associations, and many rumors of fixed fights. I'm very aware many of his fights were widely considered fixes. But the fact still remains that even with those rumors/fixes Carnera was considered a very hard hitter. He wasn't a pushover is all I'm saying.

But I'll give you that Carnera was a paper champion, that's fine by me.

Wow, you should give Rafeal Palmeiro a lesson on how to apologize! Well done!

You were evidently ignorant about a subject, I informed you about the subject, you call me bad names...and then your apology consists of you saying "I already knew what you told me, and I'll make up yet another 'fact' about the subject I knew nothing about (Carnera was a 'very hard hitter'?! LMAO! What on earth are you talking about?), and close my apology by allowing the common knowledge you dropped on me."

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Wow, you should give Rafeal Palmeiro a lesson on how to apologize! Well done!

You were evidently ignorant about a subject, I informed you about the subject, you call me bad names...and then your apology consists of you saying "I already knew what you told me, and I'll make up yet another 'fact' about the subject I knew nothing about (Carnera was a 'very hard hitter'?! LMAO! What on earth are you talking about?), and close my apology by allowing the common knowledge you dropped on me."

um...no. I wasn't apologizing at all dummy.

You said

Joe Louis was the original 'bum fighter', not Marciano.

Obviously in an attempt to discredit Joe Louis and make a claim for Rocky.

I said

The "Bum of the month club" as it's called were a string of boxers Joe Louis faught when his record title defenses made it seem that there were no good fighters left. Fact is there were still some good fighters in that very small group. Joe Louis was just too smooth and powerfull to stop.

Which means the good fighters Louis faught were still pretty good fighters (except for the short guy I can't remember his name really) The "Bum of the month club" was termed this because these guys were given a chance when they showed promiss. Joe wasn't cherry-picking his opponents like Rocky was. And when I say Rocky faught Bums, I mean 50-60% of his fights were against bums. Joe Louis faught anybody who was proven during his time. Which obviously are two different things.

 

[Liquidrob]

Holmes was done. Mercer is one of the more overrated fighters ever and just about everyone else Holmes fought on his comeback was a tomato can.

what? mercer was a beast, he almost killed Tommy Gunn, yes the same Tommy Gunn who's only loss was to Rocky in the mean streets of Phily!

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

what? mercer was a beast, he almost killed Tommy Gunn, yes the same Tommy Gunn who's only loss was to Rocky in the mean streets of Phily!

Come to think of it, that makes Kimbo one of the best fighters of all time...he beat Mercer, and he knoced the eyeball out this other guys head....fuckin amazing!

 

[Senser81]

Which means the good fighters Louis faught were still pretty good fighters (except for the short guy I can't remember his name really) The "Bum of the month club" was termed this because these guys were given a chance when they showed promiss. Joe wasn't cherry-picking his opponents like Rocky was. And when I say Rocky faught Bums, I mean 50-60% of his fights were against bums. Joe Louis faught anybody who was proven during his time. Which obviously are two different things.

Dude, its "fought".

That is all.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

That is all.

I love you man. I really do. God bless you, and I honest mean that from the bottom of my heart.











































now :gtfo:

 

[Senser81]

I love you man. I really do. God bless you, and I honest mean that from the bottom of my heart.


now :gtfo:

Your insults are as hard-hitting as Primo Carnera. Sorry, I ain't takin' a dive. Boo hoo.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Yeah I put him in honorable mention. Joe was a very good brawler, but not sound boxer technically speaking. But Joe only had 37 pro fights total, and to be honest with myself I think Evander, Lennox, Holmes, and Tyson were all better boxers. Not to say Joe Frazier couldn't stand in the ring with them and possibly win, but my money would be on those guys because they had more tallent IMO. And surely Frazier isn't worth discussing as a top 5 or 6 of all-time. So take your choice if you want to make your list of who you would replace Frazier with.

edit: And no Frazier wasn't winning the fight against Ali. He had some good moments in the middle but Ali took the first two rounds with his usual quick jabs and combos. Frazier finally got Ali gassed and against the ropes, but Ali came back late and started smashing Frazier. He knocked Fraziers mouthpiece out the ring in the 12th or 13 round, I can't remember which one. Ali began to really blast Frazier. It's said Ali hit Frazier harder than anybody had ever hit him before. Frazier's corner stopped the fight because Fraziers face was beginning to swell pretty bad around his eye, Ali was obvioiusly ahead on the cards, and Frazier was slowing down and taking some big shots from Ali...no sir, Frazier wasn't going to win that fight.

Frazier was the epitome of a boxer... just a different type of boxer... Smokin Joe wasn't a "brawler", who just went balls out and threw haymakers all day like Shannon Briggs or someone. Joe had a unique style, that of which no one has emulated since his time. moving his arms and head constantly to roll punches off and ducking and bobbing to get inside position.

Frazier was also renowned for his body work, "kill the body and the head will die" - Joe Frazier. Frazier's body work was something special, his power was rivaled by few, and his only dominant loss was to Foreman.

Your facts about the Ali fight are also wrong... They didn't stop the fight because of the fact that Ali was ahead on the cards... most people will tell you today that Ali would have only won by 1 or 2 rounds, and there was a big chance of the fight going into a draw. the trainers stopped the fight because Frazier was completely blind and had lost all ability to defend himself. Frazier had dominated Ali in the middle part of the fight, and many thought that if Ali was going to win, the last round would have been the round that gave it to him.

I believe Joe Frazier won that fight, and if he didn't win that fight, then its nothing more then a draw, and there's the one clear reason why. before the 15th, when they both went back to their corners... Ali begged his trainer to cut off his gloves, he didn't want to go back out there and fight Frazier, he was exhausted, physically destroyed, and had lost the will to even fight. on the other side, you have a man who is blind, exhausted, and has nearly been beaten to death, and the only thing on his mind, is fighting that last round. Frazier didn't want to stop, and begged the ref to let him fight in the 15th, begged his trainers not to stop the fight, but they did.

You have Ali, who has given up, and you have Frazier... who is still trying to fight, despite the fact that the man is blind. (for those of you who didn't know, Frazier was already blind in his left eye before the fight. so to start out with, he was fighting Ali with one good eye.)

Frazier is the epitome of a warrior, he wasn't ready to stop, he's still angry about it to this day, on the other hand, you could see it in Ali's eyes when he found out they refused to let Frazier come out for the 15th, his eyes lighted up in amazement and relief.

so in the end, you have two guys, who have the fight pretty much a tie up to the 14th or 15th round, and if anyone has a lead, its one round to Ali... Ali is ready to give up, the entire staff has to stop Frazier from fighting... Heart means a lot, Frazier was a warrior.

Frazier's career has been largely overshadowed by Ali's because of the fact that Ali had so much media attention, political attention, and love from black America. Ali had also done a superb job in making Frazier look as if he was the white man's champion, which took a lot of money and popularity from Joe because of the times.

Frazier deserves more then an "honorable Mention" The Man was one of the greatest heavyweight champions of all time, and he was never truly bettered by your #1 champion of all time.

To put boxers such as Larry Holmes, Lennox Lewis, or Mike Tyson on that list without putting Smokin Joe on it, is nothing but an insult to boxing.