Top 10 GOAT Heavyweight Champs

[Senser81]

Frazier is the epitome of a warrior, he wasn't ready to stop, he's still angry about it to this day, on the other hand, you could see it in Ali's eyes when he found out they refused to let Frazier come out for the 15th, his eyes lighted up in amazement and relief.

Excellent post. Everything you said was spot on. Nice to have a few people in this thread who actually know what they are talking about.

The two judges who have commented on the Ali-Frazier fight both said that they had Ali winning 7 rounds, Frazier winning 7 rounds, and the fighters dead-even on points going into the 15th round. LOL at anyone thinking (much less stating as fact) that Ali was obviously ahead on the cards.

 

[Liquidrob]

they just had a great documentary on ali/frazier 3

wacthing frazier watch the fight and comment on it was amazing to see

its probably old, but I never seen this one before

 

[FirstTimer]

While the scorecards were tied ALi had been turning the tide of the fight since the 10th or 11th round and with Joe basically blind in the ring Ali would have done enough IMO to win the fight had the 15th round occurred.

Frazier was lucky he got to answer the bell for the 14th anywyas as his trainer wanted to stop the fight then. Joe asked for another round and proceeded to get beat on some more.

Ali wins that fight no doubt if it goes into the 15th.

As for the Ali cut the gloves off stuff, while it may be true in part, as with Ali things tend to be imbelished a bit. I'm sure Ali was dead ass tired but the type of guy Ali was he would have answered the bell for the 15th.

Ali was a great showman.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Frazier was the epitome of a boxer... just a different type of boxer... Smokin Joe wasn't a "brawler", who just went balls out and threw haymakers all day like Shannon Briggs or someone. Joe had a unique style, that of which no one has emulated since his time. moving his arms and head constantly to roll punches off and ducking and bobbing to get inside position.

Frazier was also renowned for his body work, "kill the body and the head will die" - Joe Frazier. Frazier's body work was something special, his power was rivaled by few, and his only dominant loss was to Foreman.

Your facts about the Ali fight are also wrong... They didn't stop the fight because of the fact that Ali was ahead on the cards... most people will tell you today that Ali would have only won by 1 or 2 rounds, and there was a big chance of the fight going into a draw. the trainers stopped the fight because Frazier was completely blind and had lost all ability to defend himself. Frazier had dominated Ali in the middle part of the fight, and many thought that if Ali was going to win, the last round would have been the round that gave it to him.

I believe Joe Frazier won that fight, and if he didn't win that fight, then its nothing more then a draw, and there's the one clear reason why. before the 15th, when they both went back to their corners... Ali begged his trainer to cut off his gloves, he didn't want to go back out there and fight Frazier, he was exhausted, physically destroyed, and had lost the will to even fight. on the other side, you have a man who is blind, exhausted, and has nearly been beaten to death, and the only thing on his mind, is fighting that last round. Frazier didn't want to stop, and begged the ref to let him fight in the 15th, begged his trainers not to stop the fight, but they did.

You have Ali, who has given up, and you have Frazier... who is still trying to fight, despite the fact that the man is blind. (for those of you who didn't know, Frazier was already blind in his left eye before the fight. so to start out with, he was fighting Ali with one good eye.)

Frazier is the epitome of a warrior, he wasn't ready to stop, he's still angry about it to this day, on the other hand, you could see it in Ali's eyes when he found out they refused to let Frazier come out for the 15th, his eyes lighted up in amazement and relief.

so in the end, you have two guys, who have the fight pretty much a tie up to the 14th or 15th round, and if anyone has a lead, its one round to Ali... Ali is ready to give up, the entire staff has to stop Frazier from fighting... Heart means a lot, Frazier was a warrior.

Frazier's career has been largely overshadowed by Ali's because of the fact that Ali had so much media attention, political attention, and love from black America. Ali had also done a superb job in making Frazier look as if he was the white man's champion, which took a lot of money and popularity from Joe because of the times.

Frazier deserves more then an "honorable Mention" The Man was one of the greatest heavyweight champions of all time, and he was never truly bettered by your #1 champion of all time.

To put boxers such as Larry Holmes, Lennox Lewis, or Mike Tyson on that list without putting Smokin Joe on it, is nothing but an insult to boxing.

Ok tell me in my quick summary how I got it wrong please?

edit: And no Frazier wasn't winning the fight against Ali. He had some good moments in the middle but Ali took the first two rounds with his usual quick jabs and combos. Frazier finally got Ali gassed and against the ropes, but Ali came back late and started smashing Frazier. He knocked Fraziers mouthpiece out the ring in the 12th or 13 round, I can't remember which one. Ali began to really blast Frazier. It's said Ali hit Frazier harder than anybody had ever hit him before. Frazier's corner stopped the fight because Fraziers face was beginning to swell pretty bad around his eye, Ali was obvioiusly ahead on the cards, and Frazier was slowing down and taking some big shots from Ali...no sir, Frazier wasn't going to win that fight.

As I said the fight was stopped because of the swellng on Fraziers eye. He was fighting blind is why they stopped the fight.

Chek ths read about the fight.

In the break before the last round, Frazier's trainer Eddie Futch stops the fight. Too dominating, too far ahead had Ali been on the scorecards, too handicapped was Joe in terms of his vision to have any chance of winning. Moments after the fight was over, Ali fainted in his corner. No one knows whether he could have resumed the fight. Ali was later quoted that he had been ready to quit if Joe had not.

Very interestng. We're both right. Ali was ahead on the scorecards, or so Fraziers trainer suspected. But it looks like you're also right, Ali fainted...Then again "no one knows"...Point is Ali was in control. Frazier was close that's for sure, but Ali was in control I'd say from round 11 or maybe 12 and up.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

While the scorecards were tied ALi had been turning the tide of the fight since the 10th or 11th round and with Joe basically blind in the ring Ali would have done enough IMO to win the fight had the 15th round occurred.

Frazier was lucky he got to answer the bell for the 14th anywyas as his trainer wanted to stop the fight then. Joe asked for another round and proceeded to get beat on some more.

Ali wins that fight no doubt if it goes into the 15th.

As for the Ali cut the gloves off stuff, while it may be true in part, as with Ali things tend to be imbelished a bit. I'm sure Ali was dead ass tired but the type of guy Ali was he would have answered the bell for the 15th.

Ali was a great showman.

Exactly! Ali's heart was to great to go the distance to give up before that last round.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Why hasn't anybody else posted their top 10 lists?

Have some balls, post a list.

I won't argue Frazier being on your top 10. He was barely left off of mine.

I had balls enough to post a thread and take on all debates do defeind my list. So sack up son and lets see your top 10's.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Exactly! Ali's heart was to great to go the distance to give up before that last round.

your mistaking Ali's heart for his trainer's will

Ali was ready to quit, Dundee wouldn't have let him, Ali would have went out in the 15th, and probably won the fight...

doesn't change the fact that Ali wasn't ahead far on the cards, which shits on the idea that the trainer stopped the fight because he knew Frazier couldn't win because he was down.

and it also doesn't change the fact... that Ali begged Dundee to cut off his gloves, and said he was done. while Joe was pleading with the ref to continue fighting.

Ali gave up, you could see it in his eyes, and when he collapsed after the fight.

 

[FirstTimer]

your mistaking Ali's heart for his trainer's will

Ali was ready to quit, Dundee wouldn't have let him, Ali would have went out in the 15th, and probably won the fight...

doesn't change the fact that Ali wasn't ahead far on the cards, which shits on the idea that the trainer stopped the fight because he knew Frazier couldn't win because he was down.

and it also doesn't change the fact... that Ali begged Dundee to cut off his gloves, and said he was done. while Joe was pleading with the ref to continue fighting.

Ali gave up, you could see it in his eyes, and when he collapsed after the fight.

I think you confuse fainting from exhaustion with giving up. Not the same thing. The fact is if Ali wanted to he could have quit at anytime. Also let's keep in mind Ali was a lot like MJ in that he knew ho to manage his image, his legacy, and his legend.

I'm sure some sort of conversation took place between Ali and Dundee but look at it through the scope of Ali trying to build his legend and the legend of his fights even larger. I doubt Ali was seriously considering giving up but the story, as little truth or as much truth as there is in it makes for great fodder. Ali and his crew knew this.

Frazier ws a hard ass no doubt and IMO he's one of the greatest of all time but let's not paint Ali as a shrinking violet either and someone who would actually give up with one round remaining in a championship fight. That wasn't his MO his entire career.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

your mistaking Ali's heart for his trainer's will

Ali was ready to quit, Dundee wouldn't have let him, Ali would have went out in the 15th, and probably won the fight...

doesn't change the fact that Ali wasn't ahead far on the cards, which shits on the idea that the trainer stopped the fight because he knew Frazier couldn't win because he was down.

Dude I said the trainer stopped the fight because of the swelling on his eye.

I did link you a quote that had Fraziers trainer assuming Ali was ahead on the scorecards, and that Ali was too dominating in the final rounds to let his blind fighter continue.

I didn't make that quote up. Litterally, Frazier trainer said Ali was ahead, and his eye was swelling.

Make no mistake about it. The fight was stopped becaue Fraziers trainer didn't think he could continue...because of...wait for it...here it comes...a swollen eye he couldn't see out of. Period.

And Senser, proof is in the pudding, show me where both judges had the scorecards at 7 to 7. Because I'm calling bullshit on you bro.

 

[Senser81]

Why hasn't anybody else posted their top 10 lists?

Have some balls, post a list.

I won't argue Frazier being on your top 10. He was barely left off of mine.

I had balls enough to post a thread and take on all debates do defeind my list. So sack up son and lets see your top 10's.

1) Ali -best of the strongest era
2) Louis - held title over many years
3) Jack Johnson - first great champ
4) Gene Tunney - first 'technical' boxer, still had KO power
5) Rocky Marciano - undefeated
6) Mike Tyson - in his prime, one of the best ever
7) Joe Frazier - I doubt anyone beneath him could beat him, other than Foreman
8) Larry Holmes - great boxing skills, held title for a relatively long time
9) George Foreman - great career, but really 'the best' for a short period
10) Lennox Lewis - had to be ranked


FLAME AWAY!

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

I think you confuse fainting from exhaustion with giving up. Not the same thing. The fact is if Ali wanted to he could have quit at anytime. Also let's keep in mind Ali was a lot like MJ in that he knew ho to manage his image, his legacy, and his legend.

I'm sure some sort of conversation took place between Ali and Dundee but look at it through the scope of Ali trying to build his legend and the legend of his fights even larger. I doubt Ali was seriously considering giving up but the story, as little truth or as much truth as there is in it makes for great fodder. Ali and his crew knew this.

Frazier ws a hard ass no doubt and IMO he's one of the greatest of all time but let's not paint Ali as a shrinking violet either and someone who would actually give up with one round remaining in a championship fight. That wasn't his MO his entire career.

I had the exact same impression the second I read/heard this fainting or cut my gloves off BS.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

1) Ali -best of the strongest era
2) Louis - held title over many years
3) Jack Johnson - first great champ
4) Gene Tunney - first 'technical' boxer, still had KO power
5) Rocky Marciano - undefeated
6) Mike Tyson - in his prime, one of the best ever
7) Joe Frazier - I doubt anyone beneath him could beat him
8) Larry Holmes - great boxing skills, held title for a relatively long time
9) George Foreman - great career, but really 'the best' for a short period
10) Lennox Lewis - had to be ranked


FLAME AWAY!

Balls Senser...Ball....

Foreman should be at least 1 up IMO, but we'll have to agree to dissagree at this point. Just one thing...he invented the Foreman grill man!!! The FUCKIN FOREMAN GRILL!!!

 

[ThunderHorse]

I had the exact same impression the second I read/heard this fainting or cut my gloves off BS.

It's conventional wisdom Ali told Dundee to cut off his gloves...

everyone knows this.

What is more debatable is the contention that before Futch made the decision, Ali could be heard yelling at Dundee, "Angelo, cut off my gloves," indicting he was ready to quit himself. There is, of course, the precedence of Dundee having to push the near-blinded Ali (then still Cassius Clay) into the ring with Sonny Liston after Clay was ready to quit because a caustic substance in his eyes made it difficult for him to see The Big Ugly Bear.

if you want the full link to the article... let me know.

 

[FirstTimer]

It's conventional wisdom Ali told Dundee to cut off his gloves...

everyone knows this.



if you want the full link to the article... let me know.

Again. Ali was a showman. He talked shit the entire fight. It was his deal. He was an amazing mental tactician. Some random nobody says to cut his gloves off and we take him at his word. When a loud, brash Ali says it loud enough for others to hear you have to think there's something more than meets the ear here.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Again. Ali was a showman. He talked shit the entire fight. It was his deal. He was an amazing mental tactician. Some random nobody says to cut his gloves off and we take him at his word. When a loud, brash Ali says it loud enough for others to hear you have to think there's something more than meets the ear here.

Okay...

So Ali is sitting here, he's exhausted, hes been beaten near death, he can barely walk, is barely able to move as it is, his body is on fire and he is near collapse.

but fuck it, he still is going to sit here and scream bullshit out loud to make it a show.

sorry, but I think the "show" part of it was over for Ali once Frazier started turning beating the life out of his body.

you give Ali far to much credit... Ali is certainly one of the greatest... but he wasn't invincible.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Another Article... more so parallel with my feelings of the fight, and Joe Frazier

History remembers this moment as Ali lasting just a little bit longer than Frazier. It has added to his legend. As far a Frazier while still considered one of the greatest of all time his name will always be second to Ali not because of him, but because of someone else's decision.

Since watching the bitterness of Joe Frazier in the HBO Documentary including a very heartless voicemail where he proudly proclaims to be the cause of Ali's Parkinson disease a lot of people believe he should simply just get over it.

It is easy to say that, but just look at Frazier. He is living on top of a rundown gym in one of the worst parts of Philadelphia while Ali sold off 80% stake of his likeness and name for 50 million dollars. If Ali quits on his stool and Frazier wins does that change anything? I don't know, but I know if I was Frazier it will kill me inside not knowing and more importantly knowing that I wasn't the one who made the decision to throw in the towel.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

It's conventional wisdom Ali told Dundee to cut off his gloves...

everyone knows this.



if you want the full link to the article... let me know.

LOL I linked the full article in that same post you just quoted. It's the link...right there. Looks like a link. You click on it and it links you to the page...what else do you need a map?

I'm sorry, I think I need some coffee or something. I don't mean to be a jerk. We're splitting hairs. Who gives a shit right? lol Ali is great, Frazier is great, lets all go gay bash scud what ya say???

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Another Article... more so parallel with my feelings of the fight, and Joe Frazier

Link to the article or it never happend.

 

[FirstTimer]

Okay...

So Ali is sitting here, he's exhausted, hes been beaten near death, he can barely walk, is barely able to move as it is, his body is on fire and he is near collapse.

yeah he's so bad of shape that for the last 4 rounds or so he has been beating Frazier to a pulp so badly Frazier can't even see. Ali wasn't in a wheelchair. He had just sat down from hammering Frazier mercilessly.

Yes he was absolutely exhausted, perhaps more so than in his entire life but let's not also forget the beating he was inflicting on Frazier seconds before in the ring.

but fuck it, he still is going to sit here and scream bullshit out loud to make it a show.

He was known for doing that his entire career. During the last rounds of his bout with Foreman he was talking to him, asking him questions, taunting him, and Ali was getting pounded on that fight as well.

It had happened before.

Ali always had a habit of talking shit and even yelling at other fighters corners.

sorry, but I think the "show" part of it was over for Ali once Frazier started turning beating the life out of his body.

Obviously it wasn't. There's a story of Ali talking to Frazier during the middle of the fight about being washed up after Frazier had layed into him.

Hell he had enough energy after the fight to brag about how he was now the greatest ever and all that stuff...

you give Ali far to much credit... Ali is certainly one of the greatest... but he wasn't invincible.

Not saying he was. He could obviously lose. But I also think you are taking it to far saying Ali "gave up" without really taking into account the evaluation of the man and his persona and habits.

Ali was the GOAT for sure. Joe Frazier IMO was the toughest of all time without a doubt.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Christ...

then why deny the fact that Ali gave up?

no, lets pretend that Ali didn't want to give up, and just happily continue on believing that Ali pretty much dominated and won the fight.

the original point was... it's an insult to boxing to have characters like Larry Holmes and Evander Holyfield on a top 10 for heavyweights, but exclude Joe Frazier... ESPECIALLY considering that arguably Ali NEVER truly bested him, yet he is your #1.

I could give a damn whether he beat Ali or not, its just a stupid excuse to say his 37 fights and his "brawling style" (which is complete bullshit) is the reason he isn't on a top 10 all time list.