Top 10 GOAT Heavyweight Champs

[nflman2033]

Tyson has nowhere near the wins Joe had

Joe beat Ali, fought Ali to death every time and fought in great era of HWs

Foreman would have destroyed Tyson just like Lennox did, Tyson would have folded against Frazier after he hit him a couple times and Joe was still standing

Tyson best win was probably Spinks, but my memory fight be foggy, Spinks was pretty much a small HW and fought a bunch at the lighter weights, he was just over matched against Tyson and was never in that fight mentally

Tyson was a freak if nature, but he never showed much heart after not being a head in a fight

yeah i got into an argument with a guy about who did Tyson beat and he said Spinks, and I said, who was Spinks but a former Light Heavyweight Champ who beat a past his Prime Holmes almost a whole decade before he fought Tyson. I don't think Spinks could have beat Holmes both in their primes just as Tyson beatt and even much further past his prime Holmes, even then still in that fight when Holmes got on his toes and started to box like he did in his prime Tyson had no answer he just took the shots until Holmes tired and got knocked out.

as far as the Rocky in worst era of Heavyweights is a complete Joke, pretty much since the 80's there is maybe one dominate Heavyweight you go from Holmes to Tyson to Lewis then to basically nobody maybe W.Klitschko. by far right now is the weakest HW division of alltime.

oh i will also step in that if you look up the term Bum of the Month you will see that it was the term coined when Joe Louis was fighting bums in order to make money because of how much debt he was in, so while I am huge Louis fan he depleted the HW division and fought a bunch of bums to get his long title defense streak. I will say that no other figher in the history of the sport has ever united the american public, Ali has become an american beloved hero, however when he was champ the American People were always divided. That is one thing no one else has ever done.

 

[FirstTimer]

Ok whoa timeout. Ali never truly bested Frazier? Come on now. Ali won the second fight. Sure it was a snooze fest compared to the first and the last but Ali clearly won that fight.

I'm not knocking on Frazier either. IMO he'd easily be in my top 10. Perhaps close to being in the Top 5. I'd rank him easily around 6 or 7.

 

[ThunderHorse]

yeah he's so bad of shape that for the last 4 rounds or so he has been beating Frazier to a pulp so badly Frazier can't even see. Ali wasn't in a wheelchair. He had just sat down from hammering Frazier mercilessly.

Yes he was absolutely exhausted, perhaps more so than in his entire life but let's not also forget the beating he was inflicting on Frazier seconds before in the ring.


He was known for doing that his entire career. During the last rounds of his bout with Foreman he was talking to him, asking him questions, taunting him, and Ali was getting pounded on that fight as well.

It had happened before.

Ali always had a habit of talking shit and even yelling at other fighters corners.


Obviously it wasn't. There's a story of Ali talking to Frazier during the middle of the fight about being washed up after Frazier had layed into him.

Hell he had enough energy after the fight to brag about how he was now the greatest ever and all that stuff...


Not saying he was. He could obviously lose. But I also think you are taking it to far saying Ali "gave up" without really taking into account the evaluation of the man and his persona and habits.

Ali was the GOAT for sure. Joe Frazier IMO was the toughest of all time without a doubt.

Joe was still landing, no ones denying the fact he was being beat to death, but he was still hitting Ali.

Your also mistaken on the Foreman fight... Ali had Foreman already beaten, Foreman was so exhausted going into those last few rounds that Ali knew he had him finished and it was only a matter of time.

Even if you take that all out... no one can deny the look in his eyes after he finds out Frazier isn't coming out... its pure shock, you can read it all over his face, the relief is so visible its almost sickening.

I don't know what else it takes, everyone knows he's begging for his trainer to throw in the towel, and when he finds out he's going to win because Joe isn't coming out, it just reaffirms it. fact of the matter is, Ali was ready to give up, he said it, and it was physically obvious after the referee informed everyone.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Christ...

then why deny the fact that Ali gave up?

no, lets pretend that Ali didn't want to give up, and just happily continue on believing that Ali pretty much dominated and won the fight.

the original point was... it's an insult to boxing to have characters like Larry Holmes and Evander Holyfield on a top 10 for heavyweights, but exclude Joe Frazier... ESPECIALLY considering that arguably Ali NEVER truly bested him, yet he is your #1.

I could give a damn whether he beat Ali or not, its just a stupid excuse to say his 37 fights and his "brawling style" (which is complete bullshit) is the reason he isn't on a top 10 all time list.

Hey mack, chill the fuck out. You go make your own list and stay on coocoo island or whatever while I keep my list and stay on another island far far away.

Fact is I think Frazier was one hell of a fighter. You're acting like I think he was a Bum. In fact I listed in this article he was right there at number 10 for me. I just personally think the guys I put on the list could beat Frazier. That's my pesonal oppinion. So you form your own oppinion and keep it. Say it here even,shit I'd like to discuss it with you.

So I like Tyson over Frazier? Hell yes, as I said it before, Tyson had defense as well as two deadly arms. Frazier didn't have great D, it was just bobblehead under and hit the gut....that's what I saw from Frazier most...oh and his overhand left. It was a thing of beauty. But IMO Tyson, Lennox, Foreman could beat him because of defense mostly.

It was just his wins or style. It was for me more or less about it was hard for Frazier to beat boxers with good D and power punches combined...These guys all got that...Except maybe Lennox, but I like Lennox too much to change my mind o that.

 

[nflman2033]

Christ...

then why deny the fact that Ali gave up?

no, lets pretend that Ali didn't want to give up, and just happily continue on believing that Ali pretty much dominated and won the fight.

the original point was... it's an insult to boxing to have characters like Larry Holmes and Evander Holyfield on a top 10 for heavyweights, but exclude Joe Frazier... ESPECIALLY considering that arguably Ali NEVER truly bested him, yet he is your #1.

I could give a damn whether he beat Ali or not, its just a stupid excuse to say his 37 fights and his "brawling style" (which is complete bullshit) is the reason he isn't on a top 10 all time list.

my issue with Frazier was how short his reign of dominance was, he got the decision over Ali, then after two title defenses he gets completely embarassed by Foreman, wins a fight on points, loses to Ali on points, gets a coule knockouts then Thrilla in Manilla followed by another bad loss to Foreman before ending his career with a draw, so while he was one of the greats I do not get completly up in arms when he isn't in the top 10, right now he is known more for his 1-4 recored vs Ali and Foreman than he is for his 31-0-1 record vs everyone else. I mean why fight so much for Frazier and no fighting for not having Sonny Liston on his at the very least HM list.

honestly don't know if i could come up with a top 10 list I would want to stick to and fight for because it is hard to compare guys from different eras, I love to speculate how Ali could beat anyone, however its something that can never be proven.. give me some time to think and I will come up with my opinion of a top 10.

the real fun list is top 10 pound for pound, now that list is a bitch

 

[FirstTimer]

Joe was still landing, no ones denying the fact he was being beat to death, but he was still hitting Ali.

Your also mistaken on the Foreman fight

Umm no I'm not. All I said was Ali was talkign shit to Foreman even after Foreman was wailing on him.

That's it.

Even if you take that all out... no one can deny the look in his eyes after he finds out Frazier isn't coming out... its pure shock, you can read it all over his face, the relief is so visible its almost sickening.

Any human would be relieved. The toll that fight took on both men was massive. Just because Ali looked relieved or overjoyed doesn't mean he would have not answered the bell for the 15th.

I would imagine Ali looked happy because he was still the heavyweight champ and had just won an absolute war of a boxing match.

Relief, obviously. He had been trying for 14 rounds to get Frazier to cave and finally did. I'd be relieved too. Ali wasn't invincible as you said earlier. He felt pain. I would imagine Joe had inflicted a lot upon him.

Ali wasn't invincible. He felt pain and felt emotion.

Frazier was a tougher fighter than Ali was. I won't dispute that. No one really would. But I'm not going to fault Ali for showing natural human emotion.

I don't know what else it takes, everyone knows he's begging for his trainer to throw in the towel, and when he finds out he's going to win because Joe isn't coming out, it just reaffirms it. fact of the matter is, Ali was ready to give up, he said it, and it was physically obvious after the referee informed everyone.

Again Ali said shit all the time. Dundee wasn't going to allow him to quit and Ali would have answered the bell for the 15th, thrown some jabs at a blind Frazier and won the fight. He had gutted out fights before.

No big deal.

 

[FirstTimer]

my issue with Frazier was how short his reign of dominance was, he got the decision over Ali, then after two title defenses he gets completely embarassed by Foreman, wins a fight on points, loses to Ali on points, gets a coule knockouts then Thrilla in Manilla followed by another bad loss to Foreman before ending his career with a draw, so while he was one of the greats I do not get completly up in arms when he isn't in the top 10, right now he is known more for his 1-4 recored vs Ali and Foreman than he is for his 31-0-1 record vs everyone else. I mean why fight so much for Frazier and no fighting for not having Sonny Liston on his at the very least HM list.

honestly don't know if i could come up with a top 10 list I would want to stick to and fight for because it is hard to compare guys from different eras, I love to speculate how Ali could beat anyone, however its something that can never be proven.. give me some time to think and I will come up with my opinion of a top 10.

the real fun list is top 10 pound for pound, now that list is a bitch

I would agree with you in a lot of ways.

I'm done with this hypothetical Thrilla in Manila stuff.

 

[nflman2033]

1) Ali -best of the strongest era
2) Louis - held title over many years
3) Jack Johnson - first great champ
4) Gene Tunney - first 'technical' boxer, still had KO power
5) Rocky Marciano - undefeated
6) Mike Tyson - in his prime, one of the best ever
7) Joe Frazier - I doubt anyone beneath him could beat him
8) Larry Holmes - great boxing skills, held title for a relatively long time
9) George Foreman - great career, but really 'the best' for a short period
10) Lennox Lewis - had to be ranked


FLAME AWAY!

fix your posts, on your list you say you doubt anyone below Frazier could beat him, when Foreman not only beat him twice he embarassed him like a little bitch. granted styles make fights and you can say Frazier was better, but lets be honest Frasier over Foreman I just done see it.

one thing I want to point out here while I am on this Foreman thing is Holyfield, I think he has been underrated in this thread, sure him sticking around way too long hurts him, however people don't seem to hold that against Tyson, the only knock on Holyfield in his prime is Bowe, who had a decent career, but it seems like people don't seem to give Holyfield credit for beating Foreman because of his age, but seriously George will tell you as well as many other experts, Old George would beat Young George, he had the same power with better skills, the only thing not there was speed and young Foreman was never about speed. Holyfield beat Foreman at the peak of his comeback which was before Foreman beat Moorer.

 

[Liquidrob]

A prime Lennox Lewis would have beat the Ali that beat Foreman and fought in the thrilla in manilla

He wouldnt have been sucked into the rope a dope like Foreman and I straight up brawl like Frazier

Lewis makes you fight his fight with superior boxing skills and size and would win a decision over Ali

 

[FirstTimer]

the real fun list is top 10 pound for pound, now that list is a bitch

I guess 3 of the guys in my top 5 would be:

Ali
Sugar Ray Robinson
Joe Louis

 

[nflman2033]

I would agree with you in a lot of ways.

I'm done with this hypothetical Thrilla in Manila stuff.

i will make my statement on the Thrilla in Manilla fight, I think there is no question ALi was not sad to see that fight end, and I think even Ali's corner knows he was ready to throw in the towel when Fraziers camp finally did, and also I fully believe that Frazier didn't want to quit... however the fact of the matter is that he didn't finish the fight and if I am not mistaking Frazier was down on the scorecards at the time.

 

[FirstTimer]

A prime Lennox Lewis would have beat the Ali that beat Foreman and fought in the thrilla in manilla

He wouldnt have been sucked into the rope a dope like Foreman and I straight up brawl like Frazier

Lewis makes you fight his fight with superior boxing skills and size and would win a decision over Ali

Don't agree at all. But meh.

 

[FirstTimer]

i will make my statement on the Thrilla in Manilla fight, I think there is no question ALi was not sad to see that fight end, and I think even Ali's corner knows he was ready to throw in the towel when Fraziers camp finally did, and also I fully believe that Frazier didn't want to quit... however the fact of the matter is that he didn't finish the fight and if I am not mistaking Frazier was down on the scorecards at the time.

According to Senser. Two judges who were interviewed about the fight said they had the fight tied up going into the final round.

As for the rest I'm sure Ali was "ready" to throw in the towel to a certain extent but I don't think he would have.

 

[Liquidrob]

A prime Lennox Lewis would have beat the Ali that beat Foreman and fought in the thrilla in manilla

He wouldnt have been sucked into the rope a dope like Foreman and I straight up brawl like Frazier

Lewis makes you fight his fight with superior boxing skills and size and would win a decision over Ali

also, Ali just didnt have the KO power to take out Lewis with 1 shot, he would be at the end of Lennox's jab all night

Lewis never had a problem winning a boring fight with his skills

 

[nflman2033]

A prime Lennox Lewis would have beat the Ali that beat Foreman and fought in the thrilla in manilla

He wouldnt have been sucked into the rope a dope like Foreman and I straight up brawl like Frazier

Lewis makes you fight his fight with superior boxing skills and size and would win a decision over Ali

I think Lewis is a very underrated Heavyweight, however Rope A Dope wouldn't work in the way it worked against foreman as there was no way lewis would punch himself out, however where it would work is that Ali could use that in order to keep from getting tired out while he stayed on defense and took that last minute of the round, so i think it would probably go the distance, and likely be close, but I still think ALi would win enough rounds to get the win, but thats totally my opinion... however there is no question in my mind whatso ever that Prime Ali would not have to worry about Lewis.

also what Lewis are we talking pre or post Manny in his corner because he was a much better fighter once he started being trained by Steward

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

I wont nickel and dime the top 10 since Im so out of the boxing loop its not even funny.

I will say this.

Lennox Lewis being above Holyfield/Tyson/Frazier is ludicrous and bordering on the insane. Lewis is the weakest Heavyweight I can recall and you can pretty much pinpoint him as the downturn and fall of the heavyweight division.

He could barely squeak it out against an severely slowing Holyfield with 2 tries , he took 8 rounds to finish a shell of Mike Tyson. You think he stands a chance against ANY of the big guys in there prime ?
Tyson would swallow him up within 3 rounds Holyfield easily out points him if they met even 2 years prior. Lew's' pension for stalling and avoiding fights and delaying matchups coupled with his glass chin efforts give him an impressive record but an absolute absence of greatness.


As for Tyson. I can see how his post Cus career looks bad and his ranking should be worth dropping becuase of it. But he clearly is a guy who was 2 completely different fighters in his career.
The ridiculous notion of him being bullied , not being able to stand up to guys , or would quit easily is 100% King era. Tysons early career was spent against "bullies" and guys who thought theyd simply outpoint , use reach , or intimidate Tyson. Tyson mopped the floor with all of them and destroyed every boxer in his path ...old , young , champ , has been didnt matter he wrecked all of them usually in under 2 minutes. People are too quick to forget just what a unique and rare talent he was and just how well trained he was.

Noone on that top 10 list had his combination of speed/power and unlike Frazier he knew how to dodge , move and setup the shots he wanted. Yes as a career barely top 10. But you put all these guys in there prime Ali/Foreman would be the only guys IMO that would give him a run for his money.

Bottom line in no planet or reality or scenario does Lewis deserve to be over Tyson/Frazier/Holyfield

 

[nflman2033]

According to Senser. Two judges who were interviewed about the fight said they had the fight tied up going into the final round.

As for the rest I'm sure Ali was "ready" to throw in the towel to a certain extent but I don't think he would have.

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=147&cat=boxer

referee: Carlos Padilla 60-66 | judge: Larry Nadayag 62-66 | judge: Alfredo Quiazon 62-67 ~

however that doesn't seem to be enough points, so I am not sure how accurate that is

 

[Liquidrob]

I know its hard to let go KOF, but that Tyson you watched, he never fought great comp and guys were shaking in there boots before fighting Mike

Mitch Blood Green wasnt scared and he went the distance with Tyson and he was even that good

 

[ThunderHorse]

I know its hard to let go KOF, but that Tyson you watched, he never fought great comp and guys were shaking in there boots before fighting Mike

Mitch Blood Green wasnt scared and he went the distance with Tyson and he was even that good

Ha,

Can you blame them?

I've never seen a man move his fists so fast in my life. I can only imagine what it would feel like to suffer a combo from Tyson when he was in his early 20's.

 

[Liquidrob]

Ha,

Can you blame them?

I've never seen a man move his fists so fast in my life. I can only imagine what it would feel like to suffer a combo from Tyson when he was in his early 20's.

loved watching tyson fight, rather watch him than almost any boxer, but he is way overblown IMO