UFC 104: Machida vs Shogun 10/24

[Steel Mamba]

basically cut down any time to work for a sub or solid GnP, more stand ups because quicker rounds

either way you can spend half the round trying to get someone down, than its over in another minute, or on the flip side just take guys down and win the round like nothing, also it will make guys who get taken down just hold and not force them to escape or reverse

sub guys once again are screwed by rule changes

Nah if anything it should help the wrestlers, making it easier for them to keep someone on their back for the majority of the round. 5 minutes is a long time to dominate someone with wrestling, through that time anyone can find a way off their back one way or another and score points to neutralize what they lost in being out-wrestled. In 3 minutes time, not so much. It would make wrestling more important. If 3 minutes isn't enough time to score a TD and do some damage on the ground then you have the wrong strategy and the extra 2 minutes isn't going to do anything for you.

Again, 5 minutes is such a long length of time and so much can happen that it makes it very difficult to score the round. Plus, you have so many guys getting tired half way through the round anyway. The fights would be so much better and easier to score if they changed it to a more reasonable setup.

 

[Steel Mamba]

i said Light Heavyweight CHAMPIONSHIP match, which is a match that currently includes Machida

there are plenty of Light Heavyweight division matches i'm looking forward to, Ortiz/Griffin, Rampage/Rashad, Anderson Silva/Shogun would be great, i want to see Thiago Silva fight again to see if he's ready for another crack at Machida

that's all i was saying

Thiago is fighting Rashad so that should be a good test for him. Im really disappointed Rashad turned down the Couture fight though, I think he's being cautious about who he fights, almost turning into the Mayweather of MMA, but whatever. Thiago/Rashad is still a great match.

As far as Shogun goes I'm personally not a fan of immediate rematches at all, but in this case he definitely deserves another shot. The question is will the judges view the fight any differently the 2nd time around.

 

[SHOGUN]

Semi-OT: I really wish the N/CSAC allowed knees to a downed opponent. Wrestlers have free range to do whatever in the UFC as it currently stands. Strikers should be able to punish wrestlers who spam takedowns.

Thiago Silva is so overrated.

 

[Steel Mamba]

Vitor is going to get jobbed against And1 like Shogun did

Vitor needs to go for the KO and not get beat by the more elusive fighter

Vitor is not going to have to worry about getting jobbed in a fight he can't win. Anderson Silva isn't Machida. Silva goes in for the kill and is a much more offensive fighter than Machida is.

 

[Liquidrob]

Nah if anything it should help the wrestlers, making it easier for them to keep someone on their back for the majority of the round. 5 minutes is a long time to dominate someone with wrestling, through that time anyone can find a way off their back one way or another and score points to neutralize what they lost in being out-wrestled. In 3 minutes time, not so much. It would make wrestling more important. If 3 minutes isn't enough time to score a TD and do some damage on the ground then you have the wrong strategy and the extra 2 minutes isn't going to do anything for you.

Again, 5 minutes is such a long length of time and so much can happen that it makes it very difficult to score the round. Plus, you have so many guys getting tired half way through the round anyway. The fights would be so much better and easier to score if they changed it to a more reasonable setup.

lol, just stop, is that what you want to see? Striking with TDs and thats it? Subs are going away as it is, guys need time to work the Gnp and sub, 3 minutes is nothing

This sport is becoming so watered down as it is, it wont even be recognizable in another 5 years, MMA should be about trying to finish, subs are finishing moves, guys will just hold on to end the round

The sport is already turning into point fighting, this will just speed up the process, with 3 minute rounds it will pretty much is will be sloppy kickboxing with TDs and holding, woo hoo!

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

lol, just stop, is that what you want to see? Striking with TDs and thats it? Subs are going away as it is, guys need time to work the Gnp and sub, 3 minutes is nothing

This sport is becoming so watered down as it is, it wont even be recognizable in another 5 years, MMA should be about trying to finish, subs are finishing moves, guys will just hold on to end the round

The sport is already turning into point fighting, this will just speed up the process, with 3 minute rounds it will pretty much is will be sloppy kickboxing with TDs and holding, woo hoo!

Gotta agree with Rob here.. this sport was always about trying to really beat your opponent, not letting the judges determine that you've done so. Shortening rounds isnt going to help the cause.

 

[Primetime]

Gotta agree with Rob here.. this sport was always about trying to really beat your opponent, not letting the judges determine that you've done so. Shortening rounds isnt going to help the cause.

Endurance is a huge factor here too. A lot of guys base their style on how much they can gas an opponent. Shogun has done this in the past, when he was healthy, and having shorter rounds would take away from this. Sure they are still fighting for 15 minutes in a non-title bout, but having five rounds of three minutes is miles different than three rounds of five minutes.

 

[SHOGUN]

http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/blog/ca...les-says-good-fans-understand-?urn=mma,198213

"After being blistered on the internet for 36 hours, Cecil Peoples, one of the judges from the disputed Lyoto Machida-Mauricio Rua is firing back. Fans have been crushing him and the UFC over the Machida 48-47 decision. Many fighters outside the cage believed that Rua won the fight. One media member said the UFC [expletive] up and Dana White needs to stop blogging and fix the sport. Peoples told CageReport.net that there is a lack of understanding on how to score a fight:

"First of all what you need to understand is that from where the judges are sitting, we get to see things that the fans at home may miss. Mauricio Rua was being aggressive but it wasn't effective aggressiveness which is what we as the judges look for when scoring a fight. The way I saw it, Lyoto was landing the more cleaner and damaging strikes throughout the fight - if you take a look at the judging criteria clean strikes are valued more-so than the quantity of strikes landed. Although Rua threw a lot of low kicks they were not as damaging as Lyotos diverse attack in the earlier rounds which is why I scored the first three rounds for Machida."

I have zero issue with that explanation. Judges in boxing differ on their philosophy as well. It's the old volume versus precision argument. That said, I disagree that Machida landed the cleaner strikes in the first round but Peoples is entitled to his own opinion.

"You have to keep in mind we always the favor the fighter who is trying to finish the fight, and leg kicks certainly don't do that."

See now there might be a problem with that statement. It sounds like Peoples believes that head strikes are the only to finish the fight. So does that means all leg and body strikes can't lead to a finish?

"When both fighters are engaged in a striking match what I always look for is the fighter who is being judicious, picking his spots, being accurate and landing the cleaner strikes which ultimately is what Lyoto did more effectively than Rua. Lyoto made Shogun come after him, he determined where the fight took place which in my opinion constitutes as effective Octagon control."

This could be another issue. Do counterstrikers generally get the nod in Peoples' opinion.

"I recognize the fact that Rua did have a few takedown attempts during the course of the fight however Lyoto defended them all successfully which counts as effective grappling in his favor, where as unsuccessful takedown attempts are not scored at all. Therefore going by that criteria, I believe Lyoto won the fight clearly. I'm just glad the other judges on the panel saw it the same way and I'm sure the fans who understand the technicalities of the sport agree with the decision too."

That's a nice shot at the end, "fans who UNDERSTAND the technicalities." He can take a shot at the fans but the media support for Rua was pretty overwhelming:

Cagewriter: 48-47 Rua
Kevin Iole, Yahoo!: 48-47 Rua
Dave Doyle, Yahoo!: 48-47 Rua
Dave Meltzer, Yahoo!: 49-46 Rua
BloodyElbow: 48-47 Rua
USAToday: 48-47 Rua
ESPN: 49-46 Rua
CagePotato: 49-46 Rua
MMAJunkie : 49-46 or 48-47 Rua
MMAMania : 50-45 Rua
ProMMA.Info: 50-45 Rua
Adam Hill, Las Vegas Review-Journal: 48-47 Machida"

 

[Primetime]

After watching the fight a few more times, I'm definitely seeing how the judges scored the 1st three rounds for Machida. I really think Rua should have gotten a 10-8 in the 4th or 5th round that would have resulted in a draw. At first watch, the fight definitely looked like an easy win for Rua, but by breaking down the rounds instead of watching the fight in whole, I have to agree with the judges on this one.

 

[Liquidrob]

lol @ And1

http://tatame.com.br/2009/10/26/Anderson--Lyoto-ganhou-todos-os-rounds

google translated:

Anderson: "Lyoto won all rounds segunda-feira, 26 de outubro de 2009 - 17:50:01 Monday, October 26, 2009 - 17:50:01

By Guilherme Cruz

Anderson Silva was closely following the fight between Lyoto Machida and Mauricio "Shogun" and discussed the controversial outcome to the talks TATAME. For the middleweight champion of the event, the jury made the correct assessment. “ "Lyoto fought well, was very well trained. It was a hard fought struggle, and trawls. Shogun fought at his pace very well, was very well prepared, is very experienced, but the technique was superior and Lyoto won resoundingly, "said Anderson.

According to the training partner Lyoto, they should go home and draw a new strategy for a possible rematch, confident that the karateka won the fight. "They fought well, made a good fight, but Machida won well. gora is go home and see what he has supposedly wrong to the next. This struggle is passed, does not matter anymore, he is the champion, a great person, a great athlete, "he said, congratulating the performance of former fellow Chute Boxe.

"The Shogun is done well, this fight was a fight that all MMA fans liked to see. In my opinion, Lyoto won all rounds. Shogun drew a good strategy to attack the legs, but it was not enough. There are coaches who have to decide, but the judges ... Lyoto won well, now it's back to training as soon as possible ", concluded Anderson

 

[SHOGUN]

LOL, And1 is such a homer.

 

[Steel Mamba]

lol, Anderson also thought he fought well against Cote and Thales so I guess I'm not too surprised by that comment. For better or worse those two just want to win and aren't always concerned with how it looks.

The fight was closer than a lot of people were making it out to be though. I thought Shogun should have let his hands go a lot more, everyone knows the judges don't value leg kicks too highly. It was a great strategy to wear Machida down, but eventually he should have let his hands go. Also, when he attacked he went straight forward instead of cutting off the cage or attacking at angles. If you fight straight forward like that Machida is going to slip away everytime. Shogun still should have won, but there was room for improvement and I think he'll come back even better in the rematch.

 

[SHOGUN]

Watched the fight on mma-core on silent, 3-1-1 Shogun.

Still not seeing it, even after Cecil's shitty explanation.

 

[Primetime]

Seemed to me like Lyoto felt like he won the 1st three rounds and just didn't want to get caught in the 4th or 5th. Seemed like he just sat back and didn't want to risk the knockout. Rua won the fight, but Machida won the war.

 

[SHOGUN]

Seemed to me like Lyoto felt like he won the 1st three rounds and just didn't want to get caught in the 4th or 5th. Seemed like he just sat back and didn't want to risk the knockout. Rua won the fight, but Machida won the war.

I have no idea why Machida thought he won the first three rounds.....

 

[Primetime]

I have no idea why Machida thought he won the first three rounds.....

Because according to the judges.....he did?

I think he won the first three, but I'm no expert.

 

[Steel Mamba]

lol, just stop, is that what you want to see? Striking with TDs and thats it? Subs are going away as it is, guys need time to work the Gnp and sub, 3 minutes is nothing

This sport is becoming so watered down as it is, it wont even be recognizable in another 5 years, MMA should be about trying to finish, subs are finishing moves, guys will just hold on to end the round

The sport is already turning into point fighting, this will just speed up the process, with 3 minute rounds it will pretty much is will be sloppy kickboxing with TDs and holding, woo hoo!

I just remembered that the chicks fight 3 minute rounds too, or used to at least. If they can get subs and GnP in 3 minutes then why can't the guys?

 

[SHOGUN]

I just remembered that the chicks fight 3 minute rounds too, or used to at least. If they can get subs and GnP in 3 minutes then why can't the guys?

Because the talent pool in women's MMA is substantially weaker to men's MMA....?

 

[calgaryballer]

I just remembered that the chicks fight 3 minute rounds too, or used to at least. If they can get subs and GnP in 3 minutes then why can't the guys?

Female fighters and amateurs fought three minute rounds. Female's are now five in most states. I don't want it to become like boxing. Hell, if anything, lets go back to the Pride way. 10-5-5. Really put that conditioning to the test

 

[Steel Mamba]

Because the talent pool in women's MMA is substantially weaker to men's MMA....?

Of course, which is more reason why it shouldn't be a problem. Smaller cages and shorter rounds, cmon Dana get it done!