UFC 104: Machida vs Shogun 10/24

[Liquidrob]

Shogun is a relentless and aggressive fighter and it takes some serious cardio to fight at the pace that he likes to maintain, whether it's 1 round or 5 rounds. So, it's not about him trying to endure long fights, it's about having the cardio to inflict that relentless aggression that has made him the fighter that he is. With the injuries gone and him being able to train properly now his cardio should be back which means the aggressive Shogun should be back as well.

exactly, you cant get away with bad cardio the way shogun fights, its high pace all the time, that is a very tiring style

I tried to give you rep but it said I had to spread it around

 

[Liquidrob]

And to rob's point, i'm well aware that most of these title shots are bs, but that dosent mean we have to like it or pretend its fair. We can call it out for what it is. Shogun is getting a shot because there really isnt anyone else to give it to. He dosnet deserve it, but it is what it is, and I hope he losses.

Shogun was one of the dominate forces in MMA for years, he has earned any shot he gets

people cant complain about shogun when guys like Cote, Thales, and Brock are getting title shots, even Anderson got his shot after beating Chris Leben

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

Shogun was one of the dominate forces in MMA for years, he has earned any shot he gets

people cant complain about shogun when guys like Cote, Thales, and Brock are getting title shots, even Anderson got his shot after beating Chris Leben

Same people complained about said above fights..

 

[Liquidrob]

Same people complained about said above fights..

and up until there title shots Shogun has had a better career than all those guys combined

 

[SHOGUN]

So many Shogun haters/non-believers on VSN. :nope:

You guys simply must have forgot who Machida is fighting this weekend. Let me remind you.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX8deealksY"]YouTube - Mauricio Shogun Rua highlight[/ame]

And I still haven't heard anyone give here a good reason why Machida will win. Everyone is just shitting on Shogun for his Coleman and Griffin fights even though everyone knows he was hampered by injury on both fights, and saying 'Rua has no shot', 'Rua doesn't deserve the shot', etc. It'd be nice for one of those picking Machida explain why you think he's going to win. At this point, you'd think Machida will finish him with a Hadoken or a Vulcan death-grip.

You lot are going to be sorely disappointed on Saturday. Machida does not walk on water.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Has Machida even lost a round in the UFC yet?

You have one of the hottest fighters in the sport, who you could argue is the most dominant guy out there right now not named Fedor or Anderson, fighting a guy who is coming off very lackluster efforts vs guys he should have walked over.

Let me flip it...why is there any reason to think Shogun should win? The best you guys can do is show old ass clips from half a decade ago, and whine about injuries.

I never said "Shogun has no shot". I already conceded he could catch Machida an KO him. I did say he didnt deserve a shot, because a guy who hasnt looked good in years doesnt. But we all know why it dosent work that way, so it is what it is.

 

[Steel Mamba]

Whine about injuries..wow..ok.. It's a shame we're even being side tracked by this in light of such a great matchup. If Shogun and Machida were at each others throat and creating a bunch of drama you guys wouldn't be complaining any. Still, I've not seen anyone mention a single name as to who should be fighting instead of Shogun.

 

[SHOGUN]

Let me flip it...why is there any reason to think Shogun should win? The best you guys can do is show old ass clips from half a decade ago, and whine about injuries.

You haven't been paying attention while you're on your knees praying that he loses.

Shogun is arguably the only 205 fighter in the UFC currently that has the ideal skillset to defeat Machida. Shogun is a better and more explosive striker than Machida or anyone the latter has ever faced. Only Soko was arguably as explosive, but his striking isn't even close to Rua's. His offensive game is unorthodox (which could make it difficult for Machida to time right off the bat) and excels in the clinch, Machida's weakest part of his game. He also has great BJJ and solid takedowns, both are facets of Machida that haven't been tested.

His issues have been conditioning, again because of injuries, but that seems to no longer be an issue after the Liddell fight and all reports have been good saying he's been good to go. The only question is whether he can apply proper strategy.

Now someone tell me why Machida is such a shoe-in to beat Rua. Again, dude hasn't fought a top-tier fighter outside of Rashad*.

*BJ Penn when was mildly retarded fighting guys way above his proper weight, so I don't count him.

 

[Liquidrob]

I am at 51/49 for Shogun, Machida quite frankly has never really been tested, I know what Shogun can do, I have seen it againt top top competition

Here is Machida's UFC fights, not exactly a murderers row, with 4 of the 6 wins being decisions

Win Rashad Evans KO (Punches) UFC 98 - Evans vs. Machida 5/23/2009 2 3:57
Win Thiago Silva KO (Punches) UFC 94 - St. Pierre vs. Penn 2 1/31/2009 1 4:59
Win Tito Ortiz Decision (Unanimous) UFC 84 - Ill Will 5/24/2008 3 5:00
Win Rameau Thierry Sokoudjou Submission (Arm Triangle Choke) UFC 79 - Nemesis 12/29/2007 2 4:20
Win Kazuhiro Nakamura Decision (Unanimous) UFC 76 - Knockout 9/22/2007 3 5:00
Win David Heath Decision (Unanimous) UFC 70 - Nations Collide 4/21/2007 3 5:00
Win Sam Hoger Decision (Unanimous) UFC 67 - All or Nothing 2/3/2007 3 5:00

I have also seen lack luster fights against a fat BJ and Sam Greco, there is alot of tape on Machida now, he isnt 'mysterious' anymore

Than we have Shogun who has almost a 90% finishing rate against guys like Rampage, Little Nog, Overeem, Arona, etc...

If Shogun has cardio he can win this, he has all the tools, if it goes to the 2nd round you can tell the story, if he is gassed in the 2nd he will get TKO'd, if not it will be a long night for Machida

 

[calgaryballer]

Machida
Rothwell
Yoshida
Joe Daddy
Okami
Tibau
Shafer
Gormley
Hardonk
Rivera
Al-Hassan

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I am at 51/49 for Shogun, Machida quite frankly has never really been tested, I know what Shogun can do, I have seen it againt top top competition

Here is Machida's UFC fights, not exactly a murderers row, with 4 of the 6 wins being decisions

Win Rashad Evans KO (Punches) UFC 98 - Evans vs. Machida 5/23/2009 2 3:57
Win Thiago Silva KO (Punches) UFC 94 - St. Pierre vs. Penn 2 1/31/2009 1 4:59
Win Tito Ortiz Decision (Unanimous) UFC 84 - Ill Will 5/24/2008 3 5:00
Win Rameau Thierry Sokoudjou Submission (Arm Triangle Choke) UFC 79 - Nemesis 12/29/2007 2 4:20
Win Kazuhiro Nakamura Decision (Unanimous) UFC 76 - Knockout 9/22/2007 3 5:00
Win David Heath Decision (Unanimous) UFC 70 - Nations Collide 4/21/2007 3 5:00
Win Sam Hoger Decision (Unanimous) UFC 67 - All or Nothing 2/3/2007 3 5:00

I have also seen lack luster fights against a fat BJ and Sam Greco, there is alot of tape on Machida now, he isnt 'mysterious' anymore

Than we have Shogun who has almost a 90% finishing rate against guys like Rampage, Little Nog, Overeem, Arona, etc...

If Shogun has cardio he can win this, he has all the tools, if it goes to the 2nd round you can tell the story, if he is gassed in the 2nd he will get TKO'd, if not it will be a long night for Machida

LOL@ the bold, considering he KTFO Rashad Evans, Thiago Silva (who looked like an unstoppable monster before he ran into Machida), and decisively beat Tito--all three of those fights are far more impressive wins than barely getting by a completely gassed Mark Coleman and KO'ing washed up Chuck. Let alone losing to Forrest.

In other words, if you want to rip Machida's last three fights as "not exctly death row", how exactly can you frame Shogun's last three as anything but negative? You can make an argument that Rashad, Thiago, and Tito are all better than Forrest (who lost to two of them & BEAT Shogun), Coleman (no contest), and washed up Chuck (who lost to Rashad and isnt beating Thiago in 2009, MAYBE he can still beat Tito). Shit, Soko & Nakamura are probably better than the bums Shogun has been beating.

Which is why you have to bring up fights that amount to ancient fucking history, from a dead org a half decade ago. Because Shogun hasnt been impressive in the UFC, no matter how you spin it.

Machida is more than a 5-1 fav for a reason, this isnt 2005 and it isnt Japan.

I can see Shogun getting a KO, I just dont think it will happen. Machida is at the top of his game, and Shogun is on the decline in a drug testing environment. I'd be surprised (not shocked) if Shogun won.

 

[SHOGUN]

LOL@ the bold, considering he KTFO Rashad Evans, Thiago Silva (who looked like an unstoppable monster before he ran into Machida), and decisively beat Tito--all three of those fights are far more impressive wins than barely getting by a completely gassed Mark Coleman and KO'ing washed up Chuck. Let alone losing to Forrest.

In other words, if you want to rip Machida's last three fights as "not exctly death row", how exactly can you frame Shogun's last three as anything but negative? You can make an argument that Rashad, Thiago, and Tito are all better than Forrest (who lost to two of them & BEAT Shogun), Coleman (no contest), and washed up Chuck (who lost to Rashad and isnt beating Thiago in 2009, MAYBE he can still beat Tito). Shit, Soko & Nakamura are probably better than the bums Shogun has been beating.

Which is why you have to bring up fights that amount to ancient fucking history, from a dead org a half decade ago. Because Shogun hasnt been impressive in the UFC, no matter how you spin it.

Machida is more than a 5-1 fav for a reason, this isnt 2005 and it isnt Japan.

I can see Shogun getting a KO, I just dont think it will happen. Machida is at the top of his game, and Shogun is on the decline in a drug testing environment. I'd be surprised (not shocked) if Shogun won.

Sooooo, are you going to tell me how Machida wins this or continue to shit on Shogun?

And you really tried to pull the PED card on Shogun? Really?? :nope:


EDIT:

Thiago Silva looked like an unstoppable monster because he was a can killer and everybody knew it prior to facing Machida. The point is that before everyone starts crowning Machida as 205 Jesus, it'd be nice to see him actually tested in the ring for once.

And do you know why we bring up his older fights? Because after the Griffin fight he didn't fight for 16 months afterwards because of two knee surgeries and whether you like it or not, his PRIDE fights (prior to the Liddell KO) are the last times we've actually seen him at 100%. Why do you keep acting is if the injuries and long layoff did not exist?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Sooooo, are you going to tell me how Machida wins this or continue to shit on Shogun?

And you really tried to pull the PED card on Shogun? Really?? :nope:

I already addressed this.

Recent performances dictate that Machida is fighting at a top level, while Shogun is a declining fighter who clearly isnt the same guy he was in PRIDE.

As for part two, when a guy goes from being an explosive KO monster who never loses, to an injury prone/no cardio/cant-KO-a-40-year-old-man-who's-gassed shell of his former self as soon as he switches to a group that does drug testing, you can draw your own conclusions. I know I have.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

And do you know why we bring up his older fights? Because after the Griffin fight he didn't fight for 16 months afterwards because of two knee surgeries and whether you like it or not, his PRIDE fights (prior to the Liddell KO) are the last times we've actually seen him at 100%. Why do you keep acting is if the injuries and long layoff did not exist?

They do exist, and it's part of the reason he isnt the same.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Thiago Silva looked like an unstoppable monster because he was a can killer and everybody knew it prior to facing Machida. The point is that before everyone starts crowning Machida as 205 Jesus, it'd be nice to see him actually tested in the ring for once.

To me, 2009 Shogun is no better than the last 5 or so guys he's faced.

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

Sooooo, are you going to tell me how Machida wins this or continue to shit on Shogun?

And you really tried to pull the PED card on Shogun? Really?? :nope:

This is such a retarded argument. Does someone have to give you the exact fuckin strike and time to shut this up ?

Doesnt take a rocket scientist to put it together. Guy A has looked like a bum his last 3 fights. Hes had no stamina and no semblance of the skill set hes hyped to have. Guy B Hasnt lost a round in eons , and has dismantled and picked apart every opponents hes come across.
What do you want to be said "Machida by Murder War Lyoto!"

Same nonsense "convince me Machida can win" mentality resulted in Rashad getting obliterated in epic fashion in "his" style of fight. Machida hall mark has been his unpredictableness. Now you want to demand a prediction otherwise all other points are invalid ?

The only questions in this fight are
A. How is Rua's stamina.
B. Even with a tank of gas how does he plan to penetrate a defense noones been able to get past ?

Thats it no more. Everything else including biblical highlights are bullshit and irrelevant.

The only thing that made any sense was Rob mentioning accumulated footage of Machida and his style. Specifically since that last layer was peeled off against Rashad.

:club:

 

[Liquidrob]

I feel Shogun is healthy, if he is he can beat Machida, like I said, I'm about 51 to 49 in favor of Shogun, wouldnt bet it either

He clearly was not healthy or trained properly against Forrest and Coleman, he looked sharper against Chuck

We will see

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

And i'm not even one of these Machida fanboys, either. In fact, I agree that he hasnt been truly tested by a tippy top fighter.

BUT, I just have very little respect for Shogun at this point.

 

[SHOGUN]

They do exist, and it's part of the reason he isnt the same.

Soooo....he's not the same in your eyes because he's fought injured twice, but in the actual match he does look great and back to form, you immediately discredit it by saying his opponent was washed up and now you're accusing him of PEDs on the sly....? :headscratch:

But at least you admit your lack of respect of Shogun, so I can live with that.

Anyway, KOF, I wasn't asking for predictions. I'd just rather hear something of more substance than 'Rua is washed up and doesn't have a chance'. This isn't a squash match and its closer than people are giving credit for. All I was looking for was something like this:

Shogun's aggressive style plays right into Machida's style and he'll just be able to counterattack like in his other matches.

Boom. That's it.

The only questions in this fight are
A. How is Rua's stamina.
B. Even with a tank of gas how does he plan to penetrate a defense noones been able to get past ?

I agree with these questions.

 

[Liquidrob]