What If Scenario #1

[Nukleopatra]

Where would Mike Martz rank in terms of "offensive geniuses"?

Right up there with Todd Haley.

 

[dboy_dc]

What if you knew how to follow directions?

what if I didnt bother to read the initial first post throughly and thought it was "come up with something"?

He'd still be a fail artist.

what if you stopped Len's sac from slappin your forehead? lol

 

[RosettaStoned]

what if I didnt bother to read the initial first post throughly and thought it was "come up with something"?



what if you stopped Len's sac from slappin your forehead? lol

Your jokes lack the funny. Shut your stupid cunt mouth, and stop ruining an entertaining thread.

Arizona would have won maybe 3 games without Warner.

 

[Epidemik]

what if Drew Bledsoe never got hurt the year we found out who Brady was

We would have never known about the TUCK RULE

and the Raiders would have won the game
The Raiders would have "Possibly" one the Superbowl

The Raiders would still be a good team to this day

 

[dboy_dc]

Your jokes lack the funny. Shut your stupid cunt mouth, and stop ruining an entertaining thread.

Arizona would have won maybe 3 games without Warner.

:youmad:


lmao shut yo sensitive ass up please. I dont care if I make you laugh, especially if I'm not trying to be funny. You're nobody to me....


please 3 feet no check....




To answer the question based on what I read... Ultimately speaking Arizona wouldn't have gotten as far but they still would've won the division... Trent still would've had a sub par season.

 

[steeljake]

if wishes were fishes the sea would be empty.

 

[Shwayzed]

if wishes were fishes the sea would be empty.

 

[dell71]

Back on topic:

Green goes through that season & the Rams surprisingly post a winning record & squeak into the playoffs due to their wide open offense but do not win the SB. Backup QB Kurt Warner is never really given a chance to beat out the starter, eventually gets cut within the next 2 seasons & makes his way onto another team or two as a 3rd stringer before getting bounced out of the league.

Over those same seasons, Green & the Rams are a perrenial playoff team with a top notch offense (think Green's KC days). However, the QB cannot quite come through in the clutch & the Rams do not make the SB. After about 3 seasons, OC Mike Martz gets a head coaching gig elsewhere. HC Dick Vermeil, tries to keep it going another couple of seasons and though the team reaches the playoffs, it fails to bring home a SB trophy. Vermeil, again burned out, retires from coaching. Green is eventually released and signs with a lower tier team. He is their starter for a lackluster season or so, basically keeping the seat warm for a heralded but not quite ready rookie QB.

Meanwhile, the KC Chiefs continue to be mediocre on both sides of the ball. After parting ways with QB Elvis Grbac, the team struggles to find a QB and the offense remains lackluster with TE Tony Gonzalez the lone threat through the air. At RB, newcomer Priest Holmes is a pleasant surprise turning a couple of 1200 yard/8+ TD seasons since coming over from Baltimore despite facing a steady diet of 8 man fronts (contributing to his sub 4.0 ypc), but he does not make the Pro Bowl.

Eventually, the Arizona Cardinals find themselves drafting Matt Leinart of USC to be their starting QB. After struggling through his rookie year, he enters 2007 with high hopes as it becomes apparent the Cards have two serious weapons in wideouts Anquan Boldin & Larry Fitzgerald. Throughout '07 & '08, Leinart is wildly inconsistent, making the Cards explosive but unreliable and unable to make the playoffs. The lack of a real running threat also hinders his development, along with the partying/lack of studying. He heads into the 2009 season on the hot seat as the Cards have made it clear that if he performs he'll enter 2010 as the starter. If he doesn't, he'll be released & they'll draft a QB in the first round of the upcoming draft.

 

[The Messenger]

what if I didnt bother to read the initial first post throughly and thought it was "come up with something"?



what if you stopped Len's sac from slappin your forehead? lol

The English language nukka, do you know it?

 

[stevsta]

I don't think it would have gotten to that point. Trent Green wasn't as smart as Warner, and didn't have the arm to run that offense the way Warner ran it. I'm sure you can make a case for Green's ability to run the offense, but I wasn't impressed with his days in KC either, and no way do we win over 7 games under Trent Green. Kurt Warner would have eventually taken over, or ended out performing him during camp, but not soon enough that we make the run we made. Maybe none of us knew who Warner was, but there's a reason he was on the team, and allowed to take over, instead of signing some veteran FA - While Rams fans were in panic, Dick didn't give it a second thought. Kurt Warner plays like he has nothing to lose, and when he plays that way, not many people are better.

What if Kurt Warner was given the proper time to heal, instead of being shit on for Marc Bulger?

Serves the Rams and their fans right. I'm actually ashamed to be part of that. As far as I'm concerned, St. Louis can rot in hell... and I hope Warner sweeps their sorry asses again in 2009.

I completely agree my father always said they should keep warner and what does he do almost leads the giants to the playoffs(until he gets screwed by dumbass coughlin and they dont make it)

but heres a what if

WHAT IF THE REFS ACTUALLY GOT THE CALL RIGHT ON THE TUCK RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Hasselbeck]

Bout time someone thought out of the box! Was waiting for this.

Matt Leinart + Larry Fitzgerald = Fitz not being the best or second best WR in the game?

You can take it further than that if you want.

Kurt Warner was responsible for 7 of the Cardinals 8 wins in 2007. If Matt Leinart falls on his face again.. and lets say the Cardinals go 3-13 or 4-12 (could easily happen).. the Cards are in the running for Matt Ryan or Joe Flacco. Do they pull the plug on Leinart after two unsuccessful seasons? If they got Ryan, does he still have the great rookie season or does he flounder? Same with Flacco.

How does this affect Ken Whisenhunt? He goes from one of the best coaches to possibly being run out of town in light of this.

This 'butterfly effect' of sorts is fun.. but you could easily name 1000 different scenarios from it. It's pretty remarkable.

 

[Woy]

The Titans win that Super Bowl if Trent Green doesn't get hurt.

 

[Sven Draconian]

Lets look at how it would change the NFL as a whole.

The greatest show on turf never happens. Instead of an offensive juggernaut that wins, they mold themselves into the stereotype of the run and shoot, further reinforcing preconceived notions on the merits of the passing game and spread offense.

Trent Green throws away the playoffs, turnovers are a constant hamstring and the NFL never opens it up because that spread passing game just won't work in the NFL.

We never see a team like the 2007 Patriots because nobody is willing to open it up. Drew Brees fades out of the league. Percy Harvin is a UDFA. Reggie Bush is a 2nd round pick.

Offensively the NFL continues the slow evolution of the passing game, and heading into the 2009 season the I-formation is still the base set. You see more double tight formations than 4 WR.

Would innovation have haulted? No, but just as the run and shoot was left behind and the league temporarily reverted back, we would have seen similar backlash. The old adage that you need to run the ball to win games isn't absolutely shattered. The value of the Westbrook style back is never realized, the quick slot receiver remains under-valued (See: Wes Welker) and the NFL draft remains dominated by Big 10 running backs who bust.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

The Titans win that Super Bowl if Trent Green doesn't get hurt.

No, TB wins the SB, and Dungy never gets run out of town.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Lets look at how it would change the NFL as a whole.

The greatest show on turf never happens. Instead of an offensive juggernaut that wins, they mold themselves into the stereotype of the run and shoot, further reinforcing preconceived notions on the merits of the passing game and spread offense.

Trent Green throws away the playoffs, turnovers are a constant hamstring and the NFL never opens it up because that spread passing game just won't work in the NFL.

We never see a team like the 2007 Patriots because nobody is willing to open it up. Drew Brees fades out of the league. Percy Harvin is a UDFA. Reggie Bush is a 2nd round pick.

Offensively the NFL continues the slow evolution of the passing game, and heading into the 2009 season the I-formation is still the base set. You see more double tight formations than 4 WR.

Would innovation have haulted? No, but just as the run and shoot was left behind and the league temporarily reverted back, we would have seen similar backlash. The old adage that you need to run the ball to win games isn't absolutely shattered. The value of the Westbrook style back is never realized, the quick slot receiver remains under-valued (See: Wes Welker) and the NFL draft remains dominated by Big 10 running backs who bust.

I don't even know where to start.

The "Greatest Show On Turf"/Martz offense is not a Run & Shoot, nor did it evolve from the R&S. It's not really a spread offense, either.

It's the old Air Coryell offense, which relies heavily on double TE in the run game (something you never see in the R&S, whicj requires no TE's on the roster--period), and a timing based passing game based on confusing the defense and creating mismatches.

Martz used to say that a good chunk of his playbook were plays directly taken from Coryell, using Faulk in the Kellen Winslow role because he had a roster stocked with blocking TE's (Ernie Conwell, Jeff Robinson, Roland Williams), and obviously Faulk was a superlative pass catcher on the level with most WR's.

Joe Gibbs & Al Saunders, among others, also run variations of that offense. It's been a mainstay in the league since the Coryell days, although obviously modified over time and with tweaks when different coaches got their hands on it.

The "Run And Shoot" was what June Jones ran at Atlanta & Hawaii (and now SMU), and is largely the same R&S created by Mouse Davis. If you watched Hawaii during the Jones era, that offense hardly resembled what Martz or Coryell or Gibbs ran.

The spread, which is all the rage in college ball these days, is different from both.

 

[Sven Draconian]

I don't even know where to start.

The "Greatest Show On Turf"/Martz offense is not a Run & Shoot, nor did it evolve from the R&S. It's not really a spread offense, either.

1) I never said it was.
2) Yes it is.

The point was that it was a wide open offense that shocked the league, just as the R&S did. The R&S was ousted because of the perception that it couldn't win big games, a silly argument but group think is a powerful thing. The same fate would have befallen the Martz offense if Trent Green was throwing playoff games away.Regardless of how stupid the rationale is, until a team wins a super bowl, doing something different is always viewed negatively.

It's the old Air Coryell offense, which relies heavily on double TE in the run game (something you never see in the R&S, whicj requires no TE's on the roster--period), and a timing based passing game based on confusing the defense and creating mismatches.

Martz used to say that a good chunk of his playbook were plays directly taken from Coryell, using Faulk in the Kellen Winslow role because he had a roster stocked with blocking TE's (Ernie Conwell, Jeff Robinson, Roland Williams).

Guess where the R&S took their plays from?

The Martz offense is, in essence, the run and shoot on steroids. First and foremost, Martz changed the pass protection (the biggest failure for the shoot) and dropped the half-rolls. From their he opened up the vertical game reads. However, the basis of his offense was developed in the Run and Shoot. The way his receivers modify routes based on coverage and use defensive players as landmarks was pioneered by the R&S. In fact, those same principles are the base principles for the 60 choice (Run and Shoot play #1).

The shoot wasn't developed in a vacuum and Martz is too smart to ignore their principals. Everything is interrelated.

Joe Gibbs & Al Saunders, among others, also run variations of that offense. It's been a mainstay in the league since the Coryell days, although obviously modified over time and with tweaks when different coaches got their hands on it.

The Run and Shoot is in every playbook. Hell, open up your madden playbook. Stick, Choice, Levels are all R&S plays. Every choice route, Z-spot and others also were originally R&S concepts.

The "Run And Shoot" was what June Jones ran at Atlanta & Hawaii (and now SMU), and is largely the same R&S created by Mouse Davis. If you watched Hawaii during the Jones era, that offense hardly resembled what Martz or Coryell or Gibbs ran.

Of course it's different, different levels and more development. The Jones Hawaii offense adopted many "Air Raid" principals and stole some of Spurriers stuff as well.

But regardless, Martz doesn't run the Shoot so that's irrelevant.

The spread, which is all the rage in college ball these days, is different from both.[/QUOTE]

The spread is nothing more than spreading the field by the use of formation and receivers. Spread is formation, not scheme. There is little in common between the Florida veer spread and the West Virginia/Michigan zone read spread.

 

[Fox1994]

Back on topic:

Green goes through that season & the Rams surprisingly post a winning record & squeak into the playoffs due to their wide open offense but do not win the SB. Backup QB Kurt Warner is never really given a chance to beat out the starter, eventually gets cut within the next 2 seasons & makes his way onto another team or two as a 3rd stringer before getting bounced out of the league.

Over those same seasons, Green & the Rams are a perrenial playoff team with a top notch offense (think Green's KC days). However, the QB cannot quite come through in the clutch & the Rams do not make the SB. After about 3 seasons, OC Mike Martz gets a head coaching gig elsewhere. HC Dick Vermeil, tries to keep it going another couple of seasons and though the team reaches the playoffs, it fails to bring home a SB trophy. Vermeil, again burned out, retires from coaching. Green is eventually released and signs with a lower tier team. He is their starter for a lackluster season or so, basically keeping the seat warm for a heralded but not quite ready rookie QB.

Meanwhile, the KC Chiefs continue to be mediocre on both sides of the ball. After parting ways with QB Elvis Grbac, the team struggles to find a QB and the offense remains lackluster with TE Tony Gonzalez the lone threat through the air. At RB, newcomer Priest Holmes is a pleasant surprise turning a couple of 1200 yard/8+ TD seasons since coming over from Baltimore despite facing a steady diet of 8 man fronts (contributing to his sub 4.0 ypc), but he does not make the Pro Bowl.

Eventually, the Arizona Cardinals find themselves drafting Matt Leinart of USC to be their starting QB. After struggling through his rookie year, he enters 2007 with high hopes as it becomes apparent the Cards have two serious weapons in wideouts Anquan Boldin & Larry Fitzgerald. Throughout '07 & '08, Leinart is wildly inconsistent, making the Cards explosive but unreliable and unable to make the playoffs. The lack of a real running threat also hinders his development, along with the partying/lack of studying. He heads into the 2009 season on the hot seat as the Cards have made it clear that if he performs he'll enter 2010 as the starter. If he doesn't, he'll be released & they'll draft a QB in the first round of the upcoming draft.

Interesting how it ends on the same - or similar - note as real life.

Would innovation have haulted? No, but just as the run and shoot was left behind and the league temporarily reverted back, we would have seen similar backlash. The old adage that you need to run the ball to win games isn't absolutely shattered. The value of the Westbrook style back is never realized, the quick slot receiver remains under-valued (See: Wes Welker) and the NFL draft remains dominated by Big 10 running backs who bust.

The post as a whole was great, but this finale is something else. Y'see, because of the mass of Big Ten backs (Ron Dayne, Jonathan Wells, Ki-Jana Carter, Chris Perry, T.J. Duckett?) who don't succeed, I don't predict much success for Chris Wells. Especially with as fragile as he's proving to be. Of course, there was the average Tyrone Wheatley and the pretty great Eddie George, but aside from them, the Big 10 track record isn't great.

check this: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=schatz/050405

 

[RosettaStoned]

:youmad:


lmao shut yo sensitive ass up please. I dont care if I make you laugh, especially if I'm not trying to be funny. You're nobody to me....


please 3 feet no check....

Speak English you ghetto trash, gangster wannabe faggot.

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

Lets look at how it would change the NFL as a whole.

The greatest show on turf never happens. Instead of an offensive juggernaut that wins, they mold themselves into the stereotype of the run and shoot, further reinforcing preconceived notions on the merits of the passing game and spread offense.

Trent Green throws away the playoffs, turnovers are a constant hamstring and the NFL never opens it up because that spread passing game just won't work in the NFL.

We never see a team like the 2007 Patriots because nobody is willing to open it up. Drew Brees fades out of the league. Percy Harvin is a UDFA. Reggie Bush is a 2nd round pick.

Offensively the NFL continues the slow evolution of the passing game, and heading into the 2009 season the I-formation is still the base set. You see more double tight formations than 4 WR.

Would innovation have haulted? No, but just as the run and shoot was left behind and the league temporarily reverted back, we would have seen similar backlash. The old adage that you need to run the ball to win games isn't absolutely shattered. The value of the Westbrook style back is never realized, the quick slot receiver remains under-valued (See: Wes Welker) and the NFL draft remains dominated by Big 10 running backs who bust.

LOL and Mike Martz cant get a job? Dude pretty much re-revolutionized the passing game..

 

[Sven Draconian]

Interesting how it ends on the same - or similar - note as real life.




The post as a whole was great, but this finale is something else. Y'see, because of the mass of Big Ten backs (Ron Dayne, Jonathan Wells, Ki-Jana Carter, Chris Perry, T.J. Duckett?) who don't succeed, I don't predict much success for Chris Wells. Especially with as fragile as he's proving to be. Of course, there was the average Tyrone Wheatley and the pretty great Eddie George, but aside from them, the Big 10 track record isn't great.

check this: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=schatz/050405

Don't forget Curtis Enis

I don't know what you meant by this. The point was that the bruiser style back (IE, Big 10) would still be en vogue instead of the smaller, versatile, speed backs we see now.

LOL and Mike Martz cant get a job? Dude pretty much re-revolutionized the passing game..

The influence of the Rams is far more widespread than the coaching career of Mike Martz. The NFL coaching tree is like a tumbleweed, interconnected and circular. As a whole the NFL is dominated by group think. Every offense in the NFL runs about the same offense 80% of the time (from Smartfootball.com). The base run game, inside zone/outside zone/Power-O/Counter trey is the same for almost every team. The passing attacks feature the same basic concepts.

What the Rams did was absolutely destroy the logic behind "old" NFL offense. It's always been accepted that only certain things will work in the NFL because the players are so big, fast, good, ect ect ect. Nobody breaks out of that mold.

What the Rams did was open the door for the spread offesne. That doesn't mean every team is copying the Rams, but it proved that a wide open passing offense can win the super bowl. After the failures of the Run and Shoot the idea that you can win by spreading it and throwing it around was laughed at, afterall, the shoot had already proven that it doesn't work right? Coupled with the success of Denver and the zone running and Green Bay with the WCO the idea that the "pro" offense was the only true way was further ingrained.

Cue the Rams. They aren't running zone. They aren't running the WCO. They using a lot of receivers, they're going vertical, they aren't pounding the ball inside even though it isn't working. They didn't have the prototype at QB. They didn't have the prototype at RB. What they did was buck the major trends at the time.

The media jumps on board, the idea of opening it up is no longer ridiculed with talk of the R&S. Innovative coaches now have the freedom to get creative and break the mold. It's grown every year since then.

The point isn't so much that the NFL adopted the Martz offense, it didn't, but it broke the stigma that had existed.