NFL's Top 100 Discussion

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

...which does not make a QB a better player.

Value =/= skill.

This is the basic issue with any of these lifts. There are 5 offensive lineman starting for every team, every weeek. There is 1 QB. Any logical, rational list should have damn near that same 5:1 ratio for lineman to QBs.

Looked at from a different perspective, as there are 22 starters you would expect each position to have around 4 representatives, with a few left over spots.

So, is Freeman a top 5 (I'll even give it 6) QB?
In no particular order:
Rodgers
Brees
Brady
Peyton
Rivers
Ryan
Rothlesburger
Vick???

He hasn't done anything to seperate himeslf from the Sanchez or Flacco. It's tough to even put him over a guy like Eli. Just off stats, he's right with Schaub and Orton.

Freeman is somewhere on the fringe of the top 10. Putting him right on par with a top 20 CB, top 30 LB, top 20 DE, top 30 WR, top 10 RB, top 10 center ect ect.

Putting him rihgt on the fringe of the top 200 players. Since the AFC>NFC, I think it's pretty fair to say that he is on the outside looking in on the top 100 NFC players.

WTF are you talking about? 22 starters? The top 100 players aren't a probowl team, you aren't looking at a roster sheet. It's a list. You could have 100 DE's if there were so many DE's that were better than any other position. You don't say "This QB who is better than this CB can't be on the list because we already have 10 QBs and only 3 corners." If there are 15 QBs that fit on the list because they are that good, they better make the damn list.

[Blick]

Gruden's not a good example. He loves everyone. He'd tell you Charlie Sheen has all the tools to be a successful NFL QB if you gave him the time of day.

Not the point. What do you think Freeman's weaknesses are?

Shayn did a really nice job breaking down the highlights, and all you guys had to come back with was "well, it was just a highlight video".

Shit's weak.

[Blick]

...which does not make a QB a better player.

Value =/= skill.

This is the basic issue with any of these lifts. There are 5 offensive lineman starting for every team, every weeek. There is 1 QB. Any logical, rational list should have damn near that same 5:1 ratio for lineman to QBs.

Looked at from a different perspective, as there are 22 starters you would expect each position to have around 4 representatives, with a few left over spots.

So, is Freeman a top 5 (I'll even give it 6) QB?
In no particular order:
Rodgers
Brees
Brady
Peyton
Rivers
Ryan
Rothlesburger
Vick???

He hasn't done anything to seperate himeslf from the Sanchez or Flacco. It's tough to even put him over a guy like Eli. Just off stats, he's right with Schaub and Orton.

Freeman is somewhere on the fringe of the top 10. Putting him right on par with a top 20 CB, top 30 LB, top 20 DE, top 30 WR, top 10 RB, top 10 center ect ect.

Putting him rihgt on the fringe of the top 200 players. Since the AFC>NFC, I think it's pretty fair to say that he is on the outside looking in on the top 100 NFC players.

I don't even know where to start with this horse shit. Using your logic, you would put the best punter in the league on the list over a fringe top 10 QB. Sorry, I'm not okay with that.

You have to take positional value into account for lists like this. How else do you decide who is better between the 10th best QB and the 5th best left guard? You take QB's over other positions because it's the most difficult to play.

So, knowing how hard it is to play QB in the NFL, and taking into consideration the team Tampa has around Freeman, the fact that in only his second season in the league, he put up the numbers he did and led his team to as many wins as he did is remarkable. It's not like we're talking about a career journeyman who pulled a season out of his ass here. This is a 1st round talent with an elite skillset who is living up to the hype. His peers took notice and put him on the list. Makes sense to me.

[Senser81]

Yeah because Freeman wasn't in the probowl because Roman Harper or Chris Snee made the team. And if you're right about the idea that the probowl roster coincides exactly with the top 100, I wonder what that says about Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers? :smug2:

Its funny how you and BigBucs are pooh-poohing all these pro bowlers like EJ Henderson and Chris Snee.

Chris Snee has been one of the best run blockers and best guards, period, in the NFL for years. 2010 was his third consecutive year of making the pro bowl, and he was 1st team All-Pro in 2008. Rest assured that Josh Freeman will never be 1st team All-Pro in his career.

[Senser81]

I don't even know where to start with this horse shit. Using your logic, you would put the best punter in the league on the list over a fringe top 10 QB. Sorry, I'm not okay with that.

You have to take positional value into account for lists like this. How else do you decide who is better between the 10th best QB and the 5th best left guard? You take QB's over other positions because it's the most difficult to play.

So, knowing how hard it is to play QB in the NFL, and taking into consideration the team Tampa has around Freeman, the fact that in only his second season in the league, he put up the numbers he did and led his team to as many wins as he did is remarkable. It's not like we're talking about a career journeyman who pulled a season out of his ass here. This is a 1st round talent with an elite skillset who is living up to the hype. His peers took notice and put him on the list. Makes sense to me.

Absolutely retarded post....but proves how ridiculous the pro-Freeman faction is. The three strongest aspects of the Freeman top 100 "argument" are 1) Freeman's potential, 2) Freeman's position, and 3) Freeman's supporting cast. Amazingly, none of these three things actually deal with Freeman's current on-field performance. REPEAT: none of these three things actually deal with Freeman's current on-field performance.

[Aso]

Did Freeman not perform well on the field? He looked clutch, played well under pressure, etc.

[Blick]

Its funny how you and BigBucs are pooh-poohing all these pro bowlers like EJ Henderson and Chris Snee.

Chris Snee has been one of the best run blockers and best guards, period, in the NFL for years. 2010 was his third consecutive year of making the pro bowl, and he was 1st team All-Pro in 2008. Rest assured that Josh Freeman
will never be 1st team All-Pro in his career.

Nuke-like proclamation

[Senser81]

Did Freeman not perform well on the field? He looked clutch, played well under pressure, etc.

He played well for one season. So did Matt Cassel. Cassel's stats are nearly identical to Freeman's, and Cassel led his team to the playoffs and didn't get outpassed by Drew Stanton in a make-or-break game. So if Freeman is truly the 86th best player in the NFL, I would expect Cassel to be #85 or #84.

[Senser81]

Nuke-like proclamation

:cookiemonster1:

[Blick]

Absolutely retarded post....but proves how ridiculous the pro-Freeman faction is. The three strongest aspects of the Freeman top 100 "argument" are 1) Freeman's potential, 2) Freeman's position, and 3) Freeman's supporting cast. Amazingly, none of these three things actually deal with Freeman's current on-field performance. REPEAT: none of these three things actually deal with Freeman's current on-field performance.

How did he not play well on the field last year?

[Aso]

He played well for one season. So did Matt Cassel. Cassel's stats are nearly identical to Freeman's, and Cassel led his team to the playoffs and didn't get outpassed by Drew Stanton in a make-or-break game. So if Freeman is truly the 86th best player in the NFL, I would expect Cassel to be #85 or #84.

Cassel has a much better supporting cast... Freeman has no offensive line and young receivers. The fact that the Bucs got 10 wins last year was absolutely miraculous because their roster is awful. Freeman also didn't fold and throw 0 td's to 5 int's in the last 2 games of his season. Freeman can not only complete short passes but can actually push the ball down the field unlike Cassel and actually can handle any sort of blitz throw at him.

[Blick]

He played well for one season. So did Matt Cassel. Cassel's stats are nearly identical to Freeman's, and Cassel led his team to the playoffs and didn't get outpassed by Drew Stanton in a make-or-break game. So if Freeman is truly the 86th best player in the NFL, I would expect Cassel to be #85 or #84.

Matt Cassel sucks. Freeman doesn't. Good post.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Cassel has a much better supporting cast... Freeman has no offensive line and young receivers. The fact that the Bucs got 10 wins last year was absolutely miraculous because their roster is awful. Freeman also didn't fold and throw 0 td's to 5 int's in the last 2 games of his season. Freeman can not only complete short passes but can actually push the ball down the field unlike Cassel and actually can handle any sort of blitz throw at him.

Cassel now has two or three very good seasons under his belt, Freeman has one. I can name you dozens of QB's who notched one good (statistical) season.

The issue here isn't the merits of Freeman. The issue here, is whether he is one of the top 100 players in the league, after one decent season, which frankly is absurd. 100 is not a lot of players. As I stated earlier, you'd have a hard time ranking him among the top 12 or 13 or 14 QB's. He's lumped in with the Flaccos & Cassels (both of whom have had more success, btw) and below the Ryans & Rivers & Eli's. Even if you squeeze him, say 13th, that means you already have 12 guys better than him. You only need 88 more. From every other position. Each position has 5 or 6 elite guys who are clearly better than a second year QB who has never made a pro bowl, all pro team, or played in a playoff game. Excluding K's, P's, and QB's (which we've counted already), and excluding one WR, one CB, one DE, one DT, and one OLB spot, because generally those are lumped regardless of which side you play, you have 14 positions that go 5 deep (VERY conservatively) with players better and more acclaimed than Freeman. So that's 70 more players, and keeep in mind, we are being conservative in these estimates. He's already pushing the 90's.

And forget the entire league, I still say he isn't top 100 in the NFC.

[Aso]

Flacco and Cassel are better than Freeman?

And why do people think Eli is good?

[Blick]

Cassel now has two or three very good seasons under his belt, Freeman has one. I can name you dozens of QB's who notched one good (statistical) season.

The issue here isn't the merits of Freeman. The issue here, is whether he is one of the top 100 players in the league, after one decent season, which frankly is absurd. 100 is not a lot of players. As I stated earlier, you'd have a hard time ranking him among the top 12 or 13 or 14 QB's. He's lumped in with the Flaccos & Cassels (both of whom have had more success, btw) and below the Ryans & Rivers & Eli's. Even if you squeeze him, say 13th, that means you already have 12 guys better than him. You only need 88 more. From every other position. Each position has 5 or 6 elite guys who are clearly better than a second year QB who has never made a pro bowl, all pro team, or played in a playoff game. Excluding K's, P's, and QB's (which we've counted already), and excluding one WR, one CB, one DE, one DT, and one OLB spot, because generally those are lumped regardless of which side you play, you have 14 positions that go 5 deep (VERY conservatively) with players better and more acclaimed than Freeman. So that's 70 more players, and keeep in mind, we are being conservative in these estimates. He's already pushing the 90's.

And forget the entire league, I still say he isn't top 100 in the NFC.

Get the fuck outta here. First of all, Cassel's had 2 decent years, not 3...out of 6 years of being in the league. Secondly, in Freeman's "one decent season", he had better numbers than both of Cassel's "very good seasons".

I stopped reading after that.