Dan Marino vs Joe Montana

[f16harm]

The difference is your "winner" that people are talking about did it with a hall of fame/all pro team, while your "loser" (Who still gets credit as being a great QB, just not a real winner) gets the shaft because the Dolphins have NEVER been a quality drafting team, big player in FA, or a team that pays to re-sign the few quality Vets that do come into town. I understand, QB's take blame for wins and losses, that argument is a whole 'nother thread, but if Joe gets all the credit for his rings... what did Clark do? and Rice? Lott? Craig? Cross? Taylor? Haley? Romanowski? The list goes on, did they do nothing?

I agree with everything but the bold part. Miami has always paid their players well to stay, who still were in the prime of their careers.

Marino
Jensen
Clayton
Duper
Webb
Cross
Offerdahl
Bowens
Gardner
Chambers (when he was promising and coming off his rookie deal)
J Taylor
Z Thomas
Madison
Surtain
Marion
R Williams(he's made over $7 million the past 2 years + they have released him from the $8 million bonus debt during hsi retirement fiasco)

A. Ogunleye is the only player the Dolphins refused to drop the high coin on, because he wanted to be paid the same as JT. And...they made a great decision, as he was solid in Chicago, but not worth the $$

 

[manchild24]

W2BTD is saying everything I think about this, and doing it better. I think in the end I still vote Montana, but it's not this big time no brained bullshit, I have been arguing for years that people give qb's too much credit for super bowl wins, yes its important, but its still a team statistic. It's as overrated as wins are for determining how good a pitcher is in baseball.

Could NOT AGREE MORE. we all know they are the general of the team, but this goes to my Dilfer comment.

Jimmy Plunket was 2-0 in Super Bowls, but no one mentions him.

Bradshaw has 4 Super Bowls, 2 MVPS but a 70 passer rating and 212 TDs to 210 INTS for his Career

Dilfer - already mentioned

Brad Johnson - amazing Bucs D that year

Doug Williams/Jeff Hostetler

Broadway Joe - In his career Joe had only 173 touchdowns and tossed 220 interceptions

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I think this shows the genius of Don Shula. He could get inferior talent to win consistently in the regular season, but sometimes his luck ran out in the postseason. Reasons for Miami losing in the postseason include injuries that showed their lack of depth, going up against superiorly talented opponents in successive weeks, and teams being able to prepare solely for the Dolphins.

For example, the 1984 Dolphins somehow went 14-2 but they were probably an 8-8 team at best. Marino was terrific, they had a good o-line with Stephenson and Newman, but their skill position players were average. On defense, Shula did it with smoke and mirrors. At a time when most defenses had a majority of black players to combat the speedy passing attacks of the era, the Dolphins started 8 white guys. Their best player, AJ Duhe, was hurt at midseason. They had possibly the worst set of LBs in the entire league. Brudzinski was good, but the other 3 were terrible (Jay Brophy, Mark Brown, Charles Bowser). If you remember in the Super Bowl against the Niners, the Niners didn't even have to do anything on offense. Montana would throw dump-offs to his RBs, and they would outrun Miami's LBs for 20-30 yards each time. If that didn't work, Montana would just run out of the pocket and get 20 yards before the LBs could catch up to him.

 

[Aso]

Rings are part of the argument, not the end of the argument.

Dolphins team defense rankings for each year of his career:

7
19
23
26
26
26
24
7
25
10
20
19
16
17
26
3
5

The number of 1,000 yard rushers Marino played with in his career:

1

Marino didnt play on a team with a 1,000 yard rusher until 1996. He retired in 1999.

I'm not saying Marino was better. What im saying is simplifying the argument to rings is lazy and stupid, yet so typical of any QB debate.

Rings are part of it yes, but guess what. Montana is just a better QB. He did a lot without nearly as much talent on offense. Marino has the Marks brothers. Who did Montana have in '81? Marino had the players on offense while Montana had that help on defense.

 

[Aso]

Montana is the greatest of all time. Don't be silly.

 

[bucky]

I personally think Favre (who Im not a fan of either) vs Montana would be a better arguement right now. Favre atleast has a ring and holds more records. What will be an even better conversation will be Manning vs Montana.

Horrible comparison in my opinion. Favre was great in the regular season and below average in the playoffs for most of his career. Too many playoff ending ints for this to be a good comparison.

 

[f16harm]

Rings are part of it yes, but guess what. Montana is just a better QB. He did a lot without nearly as much talent on offense. Marino has the Marks brothers. Who did Montana have in '81? Marino had the players on offense while Montana had that help on defense.

will you please stop posting in the NFL section, your NFL posts are fucking awful.

Montana had the best WR (maybe even best NFLer) ever in Jerry Rice. He also had one of the best all-around backs ever in Roger Craig. Not to mention, a couple very good TEs and a great #2 WR in John Taylor.

All Marino ever had was the Marks Bros and Jim Jensen. No RB support for running or receiving After they left it was a constant rotation of good WRs and TEs. Marino's TEs were Ferrell Edmunds.....Troy Drayton.......Eric Green (bust free agent). The only good one he had was Keith Jackson and that was for only 3 seasons

 

[Aso]

will you please stop posting in the NFL section, your NFL posts are fucking awful.

Montana had the best WR (maybe even best NFLer) ever in Jerry Rice. He also had one of the best all-around backs ever in Roger Craig. Not to mention, a great TE and a great #2 WRE in John Taylor.

All Marino ever had was the Marks Bros and Jim Jensen. No RB support for running or receiving After they left it was a constant rotation of good WRs and TEs.

You do realize he won Superbowls without all the players you mentioned above right? And you say my posts are terrible.

 

[manchild24]

Horrible comparison in my opinion. Favre was great in the regular season and below average in the playoffs for most of his career. Too many playoff ending ints for this to be a good comparison.

We are not comparing the regular season vs the playoffs. They are comparing who is better. If you go by rings, which is what everyone has a boner over, there are bum QBs with atleast one ring to Marino's zero.

And the only INT that sticks out in my mind is the one vs the Giants in OT. Favre has more yards, TDs, and rings then Marino. Really what has Marino done other then throw for a shit load of yards. All his records are broken expcept yards in a season and Brees had 15 yards less in one season. Favre, Manning and then Brady took care of all the others

 

[f16harm]

You do realize he won Superbowls without all the players you mentioned above right? And you say my posts are terrible.

Because I was basing my post just on those specific players. Forgive me for not naming every player on his championship rosters....

 

[nflman2033]

will you please stop posting in the NFL section, your NFL posts are fucking awful.

Montana had the best WR (maybe even best NFLer) ever in Jerry Rice. He also had one of the best all-around backs ever in Roger Craig. Not to mention, a couple very good TEs and a great #2 WR in John Taylor.

All Marino ever had was the Marks Bros and Jim Jensen. No RB support for running or receiving After they left it was a constant rotation of good WRs and TEs. Marino's TEs were Ferrell Edmunds.....Troy Drayton.......Eric Green (bust free agent). The only good one he had was Keith Jackson and that was for only 3 seasons

I do have to point out that he posted in 81. Those players where not on the 81 team. The 81 team was by far the least talented SF team.

 

[nflman2033]

We are not comparing the regular season vs the playoffs. They are comparing who is better. If you go by rings, which is what everyone has a boner over, there are bum QBs with atleast one ring to Marino's zero.

And the only INT that sticks out in my mind is the one vs the Giants in OT. Favre has more yards, TDs, and rings then Marino. Really what has Marino done other then throw for a shit load of yards. All his records are broken expcept yards in a season and Brees had 15 yards less in one season. Favre, Manning and then Brady took care of all the others

You already forgot his int vs the saints

 

[manchild24]

I guess, we lost reception and I didnt see the end of it.

 

[Senser81]

Or, in MM terms...

 

[bucky]

We are not comparing the regular season vs the playoffs. They are comparing who is better. If you go by rings, which is what everyone has a boner over, there are bum QBs with atleast one ring to Marino's zero.

And playoffs mean more than the regular season. How a QB does in playoff games carry's far more weight than how they do in the regular season. So I am comparing who is better overall, I'm not comparing regular vs playoffs.

And the only INT that sticks out in my mind is the one vs the Giants in OT.

Then you didn't watch very many Favre playoff games. I remember a HELL of a lot more.

Favre has more yards, TDs, and rings then Marino. Really what has Marino done other then throw for a shit load of yards. All his records are broken expcept yards in a season and Brees had 15 yards less in one season. Favre, Manning and then Brady took care of all the others

Regular season stats are great and all, but again, how a QB plays in the playoffs carries a lot more weight than how they played in the regular season. I'm not talking how well the team played (or didn't), I'm talking about how well the QB played as in individual in those playoff games. And Brett was below average in the playoffs for most of his career. His gun-slinging style was very good in the regular season where he could have his brain fart moments an still put up very good regular season stats and wins. But his style didn't translate well in the playoffs where that brain fart game (throw) ends your teams season.

Brett - Montana is NOT a good comparison.

 

[Aso]

Because I was basing my post just on those specific players. Forgive me for not naming every player on his championship rosters....

You named players on their 88 and 89 teams. Thats all you did.

 

[Senser81]

Marino could. Montana did.

'NUFF SAID.

 

[f16harm]

You named players on their 88 and 89 teams. Thats all you did.

And you just consulted Google to create a retort you had no clue of...because you weren't old enough or even born yet to know this information.

 

[manchild24]

And playoffs mean more than the regular season. How a QB does in playoff games carry's far more weight than how they do in the regular season. So I am comparing who is better overall, I'm not comparing regular vs playoffs.



Then you didn't watch very many Favre playoff games. I remember a HELL of a lot more.




Regular season stats are great and all, but again, how a QB plays in the playoffs carries a lot more weight than how they played in the regular season. I'm not talking how well the team played (or didn't), I'm talking about how well the QB played as in individual in those playoff games. And Brett was below average in the playoffs for most of his career. His gun-slinging style was very good in the regular season where he could have his brain fart moments an still put up very good regular season stats and wins. But his style didn't translate well in the playoffs where that brain fart game (throw) ends your teams season.

Brett - Montana is NOT a good comparison.

You better check you stats Favre has better numbers then Marino in regular season and postseason. Granted Favre played 6 more games which led to 5 more wins. Marino's Playoff Comp % was 56 Favre was 61. Regular Season 59% to Favre 62%. Passer Rating 77% Playoff Favre was 87% I didnt get Marinos reg rating but Favre was 86% so he stepped it up in playoffs

Favre threw 8 more TDs and 6 more INT then Marino and 1300 more yards. All accounting for 6 more games played . Favre also completed 100 more passes on 100 more atts and his Completion and Rting percentage is higher. Favre has better post season numbers plus he as a Super Bowl.

Im saying Favre to Montana would be a better conversation then Marino to Montana because Favre has better numbers then Marnio across the board.

 

[Senser81]

And you just consulted Google to create a retort you had no clue of...because you weren't old enough or even born yet to know this information.

I liken your periodic returns to VSN to when I take a feverish dump, and one of the turds gets stuck under my violent stream of piss, thus increasing the foul odor tenfold.

:thumbsdown: