If the Patriots win Super Bowl 46, is Tom Brady the G.O.A.T?

[FirstTimer]

FT,

You have one game and you have a choice between Peyton or Eli....who do you choose?

LOL at that even being a choice.

Srs?

 

[ralaw]

LOL at that even being a choice.

Srs?

No, I was just prepping you for the discussion after Sunday.

 

[FirstTimer]

No, I was just prepping you for the talk after Sunday.

:nanadance:

 

[ralaw]

:nanadance:

Age
Peyton: 35
Eli: 31

2011 Passing Yards
Peyton: 0 yards
Eli: 4,933 yards

2011 Team Record
Peyton: 3-17 (including preseason)
Eli: 11-7 (including playoffs)

Presumed Replacement
Peyton: Andrew Luck
Eli: none

Rumored 2012 Employer
Peyton: New York Jets
Eli: New York Giants

Quarterback Defeated in the Super Bowl
Peyton: Rex Grossman
Eli: Tom Brady

Most Memorable Super Bowl Pass
Peyton: into Tracy Porter's chest
Eli: onto David Tyree's helmet

Often-Mocked Commercial Catchphrase
Peyton: "Cut that meat!"
Eli: None (mute in most of his commercials)

Head
Peyton: fivehead
Eli: forehead

Chronic Injury
Peyton: neck
Eli: fatigue from beating the Packers and Patriots all the time

http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...-eli-manning-better-qb-brother-peyton-manning

 

[nwfisch]

FT,

You have one game and you have a choice between Peyton or Eli....who do you choose?

Age
Peyton: 35
Eli: 31

2011 Passing Yards
Peyton: 0 yards
Eli: 4,933 yards

2011 Team Record
Peyton: 3-17 (including preseason)
Eli: 11-7 (including playoffs)

Presumed Replacement
Peyton: Andrew Luck
Eli: none

Rumored 2012 Employer
Peyton: New York Jets
Eli: New York Giants

Quarterback Defeated in the Super Bowl
Peyton: Rex Grossman
Eli: Tom Brady

Most Memorable Super Bowl Pass
Peyton: into Tracy Porter's chest
Eli: onto David Tyree's helmet

Often-Mocked Commercial Catchphrase
Peyton: "Cut that meat!"
Eli: None (mute in most of his commercials)

Head
Peyton: fivehead
Eli: forehead

Chronic Injury
Peyton: neck
Eli: fatigue from beating the Packers and Patriots all the time

http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...-eli-manning-better-qb-brother-peyton-manning

If we're going to base the one game scenario off of the 2011 season, there's no point in having a discussion in who you'd pick.

And why should Peyton be punished for beating the Bears in the Super Bowl? 1 Super Bowl win is 1 Super Bowl win. He beat who was on the field that day.

 

[FirstTimer]

If we're going to base the one game scenario off of the 2011 season, there's no point in having a discussion in who you'd pick.

Very true. I'd still take Peyton.

 

[ralaw]

If we're going to base the one game scenario off of the 2011 season, there's no point in having a discussion in who you'd pick.

And why should Peyton be punished for beating the Bears in the Super Bowl? 1 Super Bowl win is 1 Super Bowl win. He beat who was on the field that day.

Dude, Peyton sucked this year.....he had 0 passing yards, 0 TDs and 0 QB rating (or was it 158.3). I'll give him credit for not having any turnovers though.

 

[RosettaStoned]

It's not like it only happened one time.

How about Brady taking advantage of the tuck rule?

Or years later helping allow the largest comeback in AFCG history(to manning) and throwing a game sealing pick.

Or Brady not winning a playoff game for 3 straight seasons?

Or losing to the Giants in one of the biggest SB upsets ever?

Everyone has plenty of turds on their resume. And for as great as Brady has performed in the playoffs according to popular opinion...Manning's stats are virtually identical. Put the stats side by side and you can't even tell who is who.

Meh, stats are important but like I said... as a fan of another AFC powerhouse I was never afraid of Manning ending my season... but I am always worried about Brady.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

The great thing about buying into the Montana myth is, it has more substance than the arguments that try and minimize it.

I'll point at his overall post season, his 4 rings and the SB numbers that cement his legacy as the GOAT. You keep pointing out 3 playoff games he played poorly in, than follow that up with what if scenarios and excuses as to why quarterback A is better even though the numbers don't matchup.

Again, my point was not to say Montana is not an all time great, my point was that the SB makes people crazy when they analyze players.

Montana was just as bad (and a lot worse in some cases) in big postseason games, particularly against the Giants who always smacked him around and beat the 49ers three times. And the idea that he was better come playoff time is just not true and has no statistical basis.

That's the myth. I dont have an issue with people calling him the GOAT. I have an issue with the hyperbole surrounding his rep based largely on SB's, which has been my theme in this entire thread that nobody is reading every page of at this point.

 

[FirstTimer]

Again, my point was not to say Montana is not an all time great, my point was that the SB makes people crazy when they analyze players.

Montana was just as bad (and a lot worse in some cases) in big postseason games, particularly against the Giants who always smacked him around and beat the 49ers three times. And the idea that he was better come playoff time is just not true and has no statistical basis.

That's the myth. I dont have an issue with people calling him the GOAT. I have an issue with the hyperbole surrounding his rep based largely on SB's, which has been my theme in this entire thread that nobody is reading every page of at this point.

So Phill Simms is the Tom Brady to Joe Montana's Peyton Manning?

 

[shag773]

Again, my point was not to say Montana is not an all time great, my point was that the SB makes people crazy when they analyze players.

His Super Bowl wins and numbers make me crazy. I think that's more rational than going crazy over Peyton Manning's regular season numbers IMO.

Montana was just as bad (and a lot worse in some cases) in big postseason games, particularly against the Giants who always smacked him around and beat the 49ers three times. And the idea that he was better come playoff time is just not true and has no statistical basis.

Expand on the first part of this if you don't mind, just as bad or worse than whom?

So if he went undefeated against the Giants and won 3 more SB to make it a toal of 7, would that make him better than Brady or Manning? :troll:

 

[JeremyHight]

I was responding to JHight, who always places Montana on this God like pedestal for his supposed amazing ability to "raise his game" postseason.

Montana reg season QB rating: 92
Montana postseasn QB rating: 95

Manning reg season QB rating: 94.9
Manning postseason QB rating: 88.4

Brady reg season QB rating: 96.4
Brady postseason QB rating: 89.1

Young reg season QB rating: 96.8
Young postseason QB rating: 86.1

Marino reg season QB rating: 86.4
Marino postseason QB rating: 77.1

Elway reg season QB rating: 79.9
Elway postseason QB rating: 79.7

Again, it is common place for nearly every QB, including those we talk about as the best ever to do worse than their regular season averages when facing tougher competition in the playoffs. It makes since, the best teams make the playoffs and teams have more ability to scout single opponents in the playoffs. So all these QBs go down, in some cases, by huge margins, but Montana not only stays on par with his regular season performances, but HE GETS BETTER.

You can say it is only a 3 point rise and try to bash Montana because of a few bad games (everyone has them, but Montana had significantly fewer than others), I'm not basing this on just the Super Bowl, but his ability to perform against the best teams each year in the playoffs overall. How can anyone argue against Montana as the QB you would take to win a single pressure packed game?

 

[JeremyHight]

Btw, in 23 playoff games, Montana has 12 games with a 100 qb rating or higher. That is the same amount as Brady and Manning combined with 40 total playoff games in an era that is far more passer friendly.

 

[Tailback U]

I dont get how anyone can even try to discredit Montana. He is probably the only QB that is always in the GOAT discussion. Always. For good reason.

The reason why people use SB wins to rank QBs is because everyone knows they are all great. They all have great stats. They all have huge wins. They all have great arms and they are all great leaders. It is a lazy and easy way to make a GOAT list because you can't statistically compare intangibles between the best of all time.

That's how it will always be because very few people today had the pleasure of watching Johnny Unitas' career and are now watching Tom Brady's.

It's fun to talk about but as far as I'm concerned you could throw 5 names into a hat that most consider best of all time and whoever gets drawn first had earned the right to be in the discussion.

In the end, that's really all that matters.

 

[Bear Pand]

Manning reg season QB rating: 94.9
Manning postseason QB rating: 88.4

Brady reg season QB rating: 96.4
Brady postseason QB rating: 89.1

So Brady has a bigger drop off compared to Manning...but he's considered by far the better postseason QB? And Manning isn't even on your radar? :ionno:

 

[Bear Pand]

You throw Brady , Montana ,Manning , Favre , Aikman , Young , Staubach . etc names into a hat and pull one out your team is likely going to the SB at some point very soon.
Looking at SB is just splitting hairs but a justified criteria.

I dont nor should anyone pretend its the ONLY criteria.

It is just splitting hairs. My problem is with people who make it a big part of the argument. Same thing goes for QB record.

:kobe:
:lol:

It's not as big of a deal in basketball. You got Russell with nearly double the amount of rings as MJ but most people consider MJ the GOAT. Even if Kobe won a 7th ring people wouldn't put him ahead of MJ. In football (and it only with QBs, no other positions) the ring argument is a bigger deal.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Manning reg season QB rating: 94.9
Manning postseason QB rating: 88.4

Brady reg season QB rating: 96.4
Brady postseason QB rating: 89.1

Young reg season QB rating: 96.8
Young postseason QB rating: 86.1

Marino reg season QB rating: 86.4
Marino postseason QB rating: 77.1

Elway reg season QB rating: 79.9
Elway postseason QB rating: 79.7

Again, it is common place for nearly every QB, including those we talk about as the best ever to do worse than their regular season averages when facing tougher competition in the playoffs. It makes since, the best teams make the playoffs and teams have more ability to scout single opponents in the playoffs. So all these QBs go down, in some cases, by huge margins, but Montana not only stays on par with his regular season performances, but HE GETS BETTER.

You can say it is only a 3 point rise and try to bash Montana because of a few bad games (everyone has them, but Montana had significantly fewer than others), I'm not basing this on just the Super Bowl, but his ability to perform against the best teams each year in the playoffs overall. How can anyone argue against Montana as the QB you would take to win a single pressure packed game?

The first bold simply isn't true. It just isn't.

Kurt Warner played 13 postseason games and only had one bad performance. And in that game ('99 NFC Championship vs TB), he still threw an iconic game winning TD pass and his team won the game.

Warner's postseason QB rating (102.8) is also not only much higher than Montana's (95), but it is also bout ten points higher than his regular season QB rating (93.7). TEN POINTS. Thats siginificantly better than the Montana 2 point improvement. Warner also owns the three most prolific SB passing games in terms of yardage.

So again, this idea that Montana's postseason exploits are untouchable is just false. He had a half dozen really bad games, he could never beat the toughest defense of his era (the Giants, who not only always beat him, but made him look really bad in the process), his total SB win and SB record has been matched by others, and Warner blows him away in terms of improving from the regular season to the playoffs.

Pretend it isn't about the SB record all you want, but it is. Essentially Warner tops Montana in every way in the postseason, except....4-0. What other argument can you make? It's 4-0 vs 1-2, or you have no other argument.

You punish Warner for a Santonio Holmes fingertip catch and Lovie Smith switching to a prevent defense, things he can not control. This is why the SB record argument is overrated, and that has been my point all along in this thread. My opinion of Brady or Eli would never change based on the result Sunday. Lazy analysis.

As for the second bold, I think these guys would argue with that point:

 

[Bear Pand]

Man half the people who'll tell you how great Montana was never even watched dude play, or did not watch outside a few highlights. Ask someone my age who the GOAT is and a lot will instantly say Joe Montana. Nevermind that he won half his SBs before I was born. Ask them why and they'll respond with the SB record or point to the narrative about how he was so cool under pressure. It's an easy argument that's why people default to it.

 

[JeremyHight]

The first bold simply isn't true. It just isn't.

Kurt Warner played 13 postseason games and only had one bad performance. And in that game ('99 NFC Championship vs TB), he still threw an iconic game winning TD pass and his team won the game.

Warner's postseason QB rating (102.8) is also not only much higher than Montana's (95), but it is also bout ten points higher than his regular season QB rating (93.7). TEN POINTS. Thats siginificantly better than the Montana 2 point improvement. Warner also owns the three most prolific SB passing games in terms of yardage.

So again, this idea that Montana's postseason exploits are untouchable is just false. He had a half dozen really bad games, he could never beat the toughest defense of his era (the Giants, who not only always beat him, but made him look really bad in the process), his total SB win and SB record has been matched by others, and Warner blows him away in terms of improving from the regular season to the playoffs.

I think that is why I brought up that Warner also raised his game in the playoffs and have said that in previous threads too when Manning was called the best ever. The problem with Warner is that while I love him, he has a very limited resume overall in comparison to the others on the list. He had several injury ridden seasons and despite two amazing runs, his overall career numbers are low since he started so late.

Again, notice, I never once brought up record, Super Bowl wins, or anything in that argument. That is the argument you keep having with yourself while I actually bring up stats.

Pretend it isn't about the SB record all you want, but it is. Essentially Warner tops Montana in every way in the postseason, except....4-0. What other argument can you make? It's 4-0 vs 1-2, or you have no other argument.

You punish Warner for a Santonio Holmes fingertip catch and Lovie Smith switching to a prevent defense, things he can not control. This is why the SB record argument is overrated, and that has been my point all along in this thread. My opinion of Brady or Eli would never change based on the result Sunday. Lazy analysis.

And again, I'll point out that I never once claimed anything based on SB record or even playoff record. I have only said individual performances and overall career as my basis rather than just relying on a record.

 

[ram29jackson]

Man half the people who'll tell you how great Montana was never even watched dude play, or did not watch outside a few highlights. Ask someone my age who the GOAT is and a lot will instantly say Joe Montana. Nevermind that he won half his SBs before I was born. Ask them why and they'll respond with the SB record or point to the narrative about how he was so cool under pressure. It's an easy argument that's why people default to it.

trust me..he WAS that good.
Being a Rams fan, I saw plenty of him locally and nationally.

in 85, Eric Dickerson and the Rams got past them to make the playoffs, only to run into the Bears while starting a QB named Dieter Brock..while The niners lost to the Giants in the first round


Dallas lost to the niners the last week of the season and then to the Rams in the 1st round of playoffs that year....thats pretty funny :yep: