Jordan shares his disappointment of Heat Big Three

[Senser81]

Pippen was a poor's mans Sidney Moncrief. Pippen couldn't even touch Sidney's talent.

Pippen = Over-rated. He will always be remembered as the guy pouting on the bench, refusing to go into the game, because the coach called the other guys number (Kukoch sp?) at the end of the game.

I think Pippen was vastly superior to Moncrief on the defensive end. I think Pippen was great for the Bulls at that time...if you replaced Pippen with Moncrief, I don't think the Bulls would have been as good. Moncrief was a very good player. You could even make a case that Moncrief was a better basketball player than Pippen. But Pippen was a better 1-on-1 defender than Moncrief, which is what the Bulls needed.

 

[jeffx]

The year after Jordan left the Bulls won 55 games and were a bad Hugh Hollins call from playing in the Eastern Conference Finals. Pippen was a great player who's ability oftentimes was overlooked, because he played with the GOAT. Pippen's role on those championship teams from guarding the best perimeter player, guarding post players, to initiating the offense, playing the lanes, rebounding, passing, shooting, etc shouldn't be downplayed. Throughout his career Pippen has been earned every accolade bestowed upon him.

As a Knicks fan, it kills me to say this, but you're right(except about Jordan being the GOAT, but that's another thread). Pippen opened my eyes with his defense on Magic Johnson in the '91 Finals. The man did everything Jordan needed him to do to take Chicago to that next level. He's an elite player IMO.

 

[bucky]

IMO Pippen was a better player in Moncrief though.

Disagree. Moncrief would score most of his 20+ points a game in the second half, when most teams knew he was getting the ball. He was VERY strong for his size and would routinely post up. He had an above average 3 point shot and a good jump shot. Plus he was great at getting to the foul line. And he was a much better defensive player than he was an offensive player. Moncrief > Pippen.

This is what Jordan says about Moncrief:

Michael Jordan once told the Los Angeles Times, "When you play against Moncrief, you're in for a night of all-around basketball. He'll hound you everywhere you go, both ends of the court. You just expect it."

I think Pippen was vastly superior to Moncrief on the defensive end. But Pippen was a better 1-on-1 defender than Moncrief, which is what the Bulls needed.

Moncrief was a great defender with two Defensive Player of the Year awards. I don't ever recall Pippen taking that honor. I think MJ took it once.

Moncrief 2, MJ 1, Pippen 0.

Moncrief's Defense > Pippens

Some quotes from NBA.com.

The NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award was seemingly created just for him in 1982; he won the award its first two years of existence.

Although he was a legitimate offensive threat, Moncrief may have been best known for his unrelenting defensive play.

 

[FedEx227]

That quote doesn't really say anything just that he was a good defender in the early 80s. Scottie Pippen, in my opinion, is the best 1-on-1 perimeter defender in NBA history.

 

[FedEx227]

Unfortunately for LeBron, "your book" isn't the one everyone outside of South Beach is looking at on the shelf.

LeBron is second fiddle now, something Michael and Kobe never did.

And it's much worse legacy wise because he followed. He seemingly wasn't the leader that called everyone else to come with him.

That's where I think Jordan is even a bit wrong with his quote. This situation is like Jordan joining up with Isiah to the Pistons. Even if MJ called Larry and Magic and got together, Jordan is still looked at as the alpha-male and probably the best player on that squad.

Even though LeBron IS the best player on the Heat, he still is second fiddle.

 

[bucky]

That quote doesn't really say anything just that he was a good defender in the early 80s. Scottie Pippen, in my opinion, is the best 1-on-1 perimeter defender in NBA history.

So, winning the DPOY award twice doesn't mean anything?

 

[jeffx]

^^^ Loved Moncreif's game. He played on some excellent Bucks teams with Marques Johnson in the early 80s. Unfortunately, they played in the same conference with Bird's Celtics and Dr.J's Sixers. They beat Boston in the '83 playoffs only to lose to that great Philly team that would sweep LA in the Finals.

 

[Senser81]

Moncrief was a great defender with two Defensive Player of the Year awards. I don't ever recall Pippen taking that honor. I think MJ took it once.

Moncrief 2, MJ 1, Pippen 0.

Moncrief's Defense > Pippens

Some quotes from NBA.com.

Thats like saying since Brian Sipe won the NFL MVP award, he must have been a better QB than Roger Staubach, who never won one.

First off, Moncrief was a guard. He was 6-3 tops. He got by on determination. Pippen was much taller and more athletic. Second, Pippen was a better fit for the Bulls. He could match up with the other team's best offensive threat, regardless if it was a guard or forward. I don't think you'd have the same versatility with Moncrief.

 

[FedEx227]

Pippen never won any because DPOY has turned into the equivalent of Gold Gloves in baseball. Dikembe won multiple times because he made flashy blocks, ditto for Dwight Howard winning recently over the likes of Artest and Battier.

Moncreif was awesome, don't get me wrong, I'm just stating over a larger period of time I felt Pippen was top perimeter defender in the NBA and taken over his entire career I think he's the best ever.

Compare the eras and people they were guarding too. Pippen was up against one of the top eras in NBA history. Moncrief, albeit an absolute beast of a defender (11+ defensive win shares between 1981-1985) played in a much lesser era.

 

[FedEx227]

^^^ Loved Moncreif's game. He played on some excellent Bucks teams with Marques Johnson in the early 80s. Unfortunately, they played in the same conference with Bird's Celtics and Dr.J's Sixers. They beat Boston in the '83 playoffs only to lose to that great Philly team that would sweep LA in the Finals.

Very disappointing they were never able to get over the hump.

 

[bucky]

^^^ Loved Moncreif's game. He played on some excellent Bucks teams with Marques Johnson in the early 80s. Unfortunately, they played in the same conference with Bird's Celtics and Dr.J's Sixers. They beat Boston in the '83 playoffs only to lose to that great Philly team that would sweep LA in the Finals.

Like me, you're old enough to have seen him play and remember him. I loved his game too. Milw, Philly had some great playoff series. What a great Era for Basketball. Bird's Celtics, Dr. J's Sixers, Magic's Lakers, Isiah's Pistons, and then MJ's Bulls.

 

[jeffx]

Very disappointing they were never able to get over the hump.

They tried, but Boston and Philly were on another level back then.

 

[FirstTimer]

Disagree. Moncrief would score most of his 20+ points a game in the second half, when most teams knew he was getting the ball.

Pippen was scoring 20+ a night for the Bulls when teams knew he was getting the ball with Jordan not being there.

He was VERY strong for his size and would routinely post up. He had an above average 3 point shot and a good jump shot. Plus he was great at getting to the foul line. And he was a much better defensive player than he was an offensive player. Moncrief > Pippen.

All of the things you just named off were true of Pippen as well..except Pippen was better from long range, the better rebounder, shot blocker, passer, etc.

This is what Jordan says about Moncrief:

I'm sure you could find Jordan saying similar things about a lot of players from that era if he was asked. That quote doesn't really tell me much other than that Moncrief played hard on defense and was good at it.

Moncrief was a great defender with two Defensive Player of the Year awards. I don't ever recall Pippen taking that honor. I think MJ took it once.

I also recall Pippen being on 8 All NBA Defensive 1st teams. And 2 2nd teams.

Moncrief made 4 1st teams and 1 2nd.

Yeah the DPOY awards are nice but over the course of the career it's clear Pippen was the more well respected defender. Pippen was finishing consistantly high up in DPOY rankings losing to gusy like Rodman, Payton, Mutombo, Olajuwon, D. Robinson etc. It's not as if Pieppen wasn't in the discussion and was losing out to guys who were flashes in the pan or not HOF'ers in some cases. Ben Wallace has more DPOY awards than Pippen too but I don't think any sane person would argue Wallace>Pippen on defense.


Pippen's also in the HOF...Moncrief isn't so that has to count for something as well.

 

[jeffx]

Like me, you're old enough to have seen him play and remember him. I loved his game too. Milw, Philly had some great playoff series. What a great Era for Basketball. Bird's Celtics, Dr. J's Sixers, Magic's Lakers, Isiah's Pistons, and then MJ's Bulls.

Shit, I remember Sidney from his Arkansas days. He part of the 'Triplets' with Marvin Delph and Ron Brewer. Helluva talent.

 

[Miami Flash15]

And it's much worse legacy wise because he followed. He seemingly wasn't the leader that called everyone else to come with him.

That's where I think Jordan is even a bit wrong with his quote. This situation is like Jordan joining up with Isiah to the Pistons. Even if MJ called Larry and Magic and got together, Jordan is still looked at as the alpha-male and probably the best player on that squad.

Even though LeBron IS the best player on the Heat, he still is second fiddle.

Always will be and that goes for anyone with Wade in Miami, it's Wade's team. I'd be pissed if everyone(especially all these bandwagons in Miami) say it's LeBron's team.

 

[FedEx227]

So how can you possibly believe that doesn't take away from LeBron's legacy like you stated earlier?

"Yeah he was the best ever, even though he played second fiddle for 6 years of his prime..."

 

[Th3ChosenOne]

I think he just wants to WIN. Isnt that what its all about?

So you guys are telling me if you had the choice to play on a Really good team that is almost guaranteed championships or play on a team that is good but not that much better than the team your already on after you failed 7 years in a row to win a ring. You wouldnt go to the team where your going to win the most?

 

[bucky]

I also recall Pippen being on 8 All NBA Defensive 1st teams. And 2 2nd teams.

Moncrief made 4 1st teams and 1 2nd.

Yeah the DPOY awards are nice but over the course of the career it's clear Pippen was the more well respected defender.

I just looked up there career defensive stats per game, and Pippen's stats are better. It's hard to judge defense w/o watching both players. Stats don't tell the entire story. The best stat doesn't show up, and that is keeping your guy from even touching the ball.

From the things that can be compared, the only concrete thing we have to go on, the numbers are yours, so I'll concede.

Wow, how about that, an Internet Poster tipping their hat to someone in a discussion!!!

 

[FedEx227]

I think he just wants to WIN. Isnt that what its all about?

So you guys are telling me if you had the choice to play on a Really good team that is almost guaranteed championships or play on a team that is good but not that much better than the team your already on after you failed 7 years in a row to win a ring. You wouldnt go to the team where your going to win the most?

Not if you professed a desire to be considered the greatest basketball player ever. This isn't Gary Payton or Clyde Drexler we're talking about here.

 

[jeffx]

Like me, you're old enough to have seen him play and remember him. I loved his game too. Milw, Philly had some great playoff series. What a great Era for Basketball. Bird's Celtics, Dr. J's Sixers, Magic's Lakers, Isiah's Pistons, and then MJ's Bulls.

Also, there was genuine hatred between certain teams back in the day. It didn't get any nastier than Celtics/Pistons. No friendship there - they wanted to take each other's heads off. We saw some of that during the 90s when the Knicks battled the Bulls, Pacers & Heat. The basketball wasn't pretty, but it was INTENSE. That's why I loved what Boston & LA did in Game seven of this year's finals - it was the kind of basketball I missed.