Mutiny in the Trenches(Run Blocking Exposed)

[ThunderHorse]

They're down blocking.

If they were down blocking the Tackle would have down blocked and the fullback would have had the kickout block on the outside linebacker

 

[ThunderHorse]

There are multiple schemes to run the ball with. If every team ran the same way it would probably be pretty easy to stop.

So what you're saying is this is a special type of run blocking scheme the Arizona Cardinals run?

where all of the offensive line down blocks except the tackle?, and they let the defensive end go untouched while that tackle that isn't down blocking stands there looking around like he doesn't know what to do?

 

[ThunderHorse]

That guy is going to the next level and the fullback is supposed to pick him up. The fullback missed the block. That's it.

doesn't make sense, what's the offensive tackles purpose? why isn't he blocking the outside linebacker?

 

[Tengo Juego]

Great Minds Talk about Idea's, Average Minds Talk about Events, Poor Minds Talk about People

Where are the ideas in your videos? The only thing I find that can, remotely, be considered an idea is when you post videos of actual NFL game footage. And all you do is say, "This is how this should be." No shit... thats what they're trying to do.

You fall under the "Average" mind category according to your little theory. You talk about events in Madden. Am I right?

 

[Sven Draconian]

There are multiple schemes to run the ball with. If every team ran the same way it would probably be pretty easy to stop.

Every team in the NFL does run the same run schemes. (Obviously, some rely on one more heavily than others)
Inside Zone
Outside Zone
Power (Power-O in the game)
Counter (trey).

Throw in a draw, FB dive and an ISO and maybe a pitch for siutational stuff and that's it. This is the philosophy that Jimmy Johnson brought with him to the NFL, run a couple of schemes, run them well and run them out of a hundred formations. It's trickled down throughout the entire league. The only notable exception I can think of off-hand is Mike Martz.
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With that said, the play that APEX showed does highlight a bug in the game. For some reason a 3-4 defensive end gets let go when he lines up over the guard. Madden's blocking is based on man blocking priciples, IE, the guard wants to block DT and the tackles want to block DE. If those aren't good choices, they go to LBs. For some reason, the guard and tackle ignore the DE aligned in this spot. I've talked about it before in the impressions thread.

I can't think of any logical reason (or any play I've ever seen) where a FB would lead on an interior DL. It's poor physics. FB's run about 250ish while that end is pushing 290 (on average). Furhter, he's right int he ball carriers path and shoudl get a step across the line before contact and the FB will lose that engagement.

No, the FB should never have that assignment. They never WOULD have that assignment and I can't think of any offense where they would get that assignment.

The issue is that the isuse is with the tackle or guard. That play should be ran with the guard either hooking the end and the tackle blocking down on the ILB OR the tackle and guard double teaming the end, with one of them leaving the double team to get to the ILB.

Either way, the FB should be on a course to kick out the OLB.

The only plays where an interior DL is allowed free are option (Midline, IV) and trap. Neither of which are implemented properly in an EA football game. Otherwise penetration leads to fumbles (bothced handoffs ect..).

I believe the basic issue is that the game wants to treat the 3-4 and the 4-3 the same from a blocking perspective. It doesn't understand a 3-4 end aligns more like a 4-3 tackle, but it still wants to pass off the ends to other players (TE, FB). Once I have the final copy I'll try and figure it out.

 

[Boucher]

Imagine how happy we'd be if apex didn't buy the game. We could enjoy the game and not be bothered my minor flaws that someone has to find after every play. Apex could go back to playing his 2k5 or AP2k8 and be happy.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Every team in the NFL does run the same run schemes. (Obviously, some rely on one more heavily than others)
Inside Zone
Outside Zone
Power (Power-O in the game)
Counter (trey).

Throw in a draw, FB dive and an ISO and maybe a pitch for siutational stuff and that's it. This is the philosophy that Jimmy Johnson brought with him to the NFL, run a couple of schemes, run them well and run them out of a hundred formations. It's trickled down throughout the entire league. The only notable exception I can think of off-hand is Mike Martz.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

With that said, the play that APEX showed does highlight a bug in the game. For some reason a 3-4 defensive end gets let go when he lines up over the guard. Madden's blocking is based on man blocking priciples, IE, the guard wants to block DT and the tackles want to block DE. If those aren't good choices, they go to LBs. For some reason, the guard and tackle ignore the DE aligned in this spot. I've talked about it before in the impressions thread.

I can't think of any logical reason (or any play I've ever seen) where a FB would lead on an interior DL. It's poor physics. FB's run about 250ish while that end is pushing 290 (on average). Furhter, he's right int he ball carriers path and shoudl get a step across the line before contact and the FB will lose that engagement.

No, the FB should never have that assignment. They never WOULD have that assignment and I can't think of any offense where they would get that assignment.

The issue is that the isuse is with the tackle or guard. That play should be ran with the guard either hooking the end and the tackle blocking down on the ILB OR the tackle and guard double teaming the end, with one of them leaving the double team to get to the ILB.

Either way, the FB should be on a course to kick out the OLB.

The only plays where an interior DL is allowed free are option (Midline, IV) and trap. Neither of which are implemented properly in an EA football game. Otherwise penetration leads to fumbles (bothced handoffs ect..).

I believe the basic issue is that the game wants to treat the 3-4 and the 4-3 the same from a blocking perspective. It doesn't understand a 3-4 end aligns more like a 4-3 tackle, but it still wants to pass off the ends to other players (TE, FB). Once I have the final copy I'll try and figure it out.

That's exactly what I'm saying,

in real life that Tackle isn't going into the second level to find a linebacker, he's blocking down on that Defensive end, and the Fullback is making the kick out block which makes the hole.

This is exactly what it is, O-line has trouble AI wise choosing how to block against the 3-4

 

[killgod]

Minor flaws, I call a run up the middle & the blocking does that, Madden has been doing this for years, stop acting like yall don't notice this. This game is not realistic in any way, but yall get mad at me :smh: and give all types of excuses to justify crap. If the EA faithful don't raise their standards we will never get a simulation game.

The game isn't realistic in any way?

What?

Quit over exaggerating and blowing up small things into bigger things and maybe people won't be so quick to ignore your ridiculousness.

 

[Boucher]

Minor flaws, I call a run up the middle & the blocking does that, Madden has been doing this for years, stop acting like yall don't notice this. This game is not realistic in any way, but yall get mad at me :smh: and give all types of excuses to justify crap. If the EA faithful don't raise their standards we will never get a simulation game.

Um no i dont notice it because i dont go into replay after every play and find small flaws

 

[Sven Draconian]

Minor flaws, I call a run up the middle & the blocking does that, Madden has been doing this for years, stop acting like yall don't notice this. This game is not realistic in any way, but yall get mad at me :smh: and give all types of excuses to justify crap. If the EA faithful don't raise their standards we will never get a simulation game.

People get mad at you because all you do is point out flaws. Anyone idiot can point out a flaw. Shit, my girlfriend barely watches football and she can point out flaws if I went into replay mode.

:applause:

You're seeking attention by being as negative and using as much hyperbole as possible. Congratulations. That doesn't help anything. Instead of finding a replay where they blew an assignment, why not try and recreate the situation, post a compilation of the same scenario repeatedly playing out and making a useful video highlighting a flaw in the logic.

That would be helpful.

 

[July 4 1776]

:applause:

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[MmmmBeeeeer]

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IMPORTANT REMINDER: THIS IS A VIDEO GAME

 

[BigBucs]

You dudes are silly. You already know what you are getting from his videos yet you find time to watch it and complain a million times over in his thread. The blocking scheme in that video is off. It goes beyong the FB just missing a block.

That play had 0 chance of having success. Say the FB did miss a block. Who accounts for that LB who will be scraping off the edge and killing the RB as soon as he gets the ball? The guard should have blocked down on that DE, the tackle should have blocked down on the ILB and the FB should have kicked out the OLB scraping off the edge. They could have even pulled the backside guard to pick up the S or other ILB who may be trying to get through the trash (or kicking out the OLB and having the FB go to the next level) since the center blocked down on the NT.

I dont see how anyone doesnt see anything wrong with the video besides the FB missing a block.

 

[The Messenger]

VSN pile-on technique is in full effect....

 

[Sven Draconian]

You could be right with that statement but we'll never know. It was a Zone Block Right scheme based on the first step by all offensive linemen. If the developers at EA Sports had any real experts on the offensive line on their development team, they could have actually resolved this issue but instead they keep focusing on the skill positions instead of realizing that before you focus on skill positions, you need to focus on the two sides of the football where it all starts: the Trenches.

Realistically speaking, if the LG's assignment was to actually take the second level linebacker, in this case the Bear, then the play would have the LG bumping the DE before hitting the second level. He doesn't have to stay on the DE, he just needed to bump him to slow his pursuit.

The Center picked up the NT that was over the RG and that tried to shoot the "A" gap. Perfect pickup by the Center. RG picked up the Mike who came into his zone since the NT slanted inside.

It was basically a 33 or 31 Zone Right play. Really, the keys to the success of this play depended wholly on two players: the FB and the RT. The FB should have cut block on the weakside DE. The RT, after zone blocking right (I'll explain why it's import he does that first), keeping his head on a swivel, pending on whether or not the FB makes his block, would have been able to pick up the WLB that sat in the flats before adjusting to defend the run. Had all those factors taken place, the RB would be making at least 5 or 6 yards before having to bust through the FS. Instead, the FB stayed high and pretty much didn't even attempt to make his block.

In conclusion, EA Sports needs to heavily invest in some true offensive line experts to fine tune how offensive linemen come out of their blocks on zone blocking and read blocking schemes. They need to fine tune how the offensive line attacks the defensive front their given because running an I-Right 32 Dive against a 4-3 Front with the Tackles shaded inside on the Guards 1-Tech and the Weakside DE shaded outside 6-Tech on the LT and the strongside DE shaded 9-Tech on the TE calls for a COMPLETELY different blocking scheme when they run an I-Right 32 Dive against the 46 Over or 3-4 Under.

Next they need to heavily invest in some true defensive line experts to fine tune how defensive linemen attack the offensive line. A Defensive End that is shaded outside 6-Tech on the LT and calling for the WLB to blitz the outside shoulder as well, might attack across the LT's body but you're not going to see the DE try to swim over the LT's inside shoulder since he's lined up outside but rather he's going to attempt to rip under the LT's inside with his right arm.

That wasn't zone blocking nor was it intended to be zone blocking.

There are two types of zone, Inside and Outside. There are a few differences between them, #1 being the ball carriers path, #2 being how they treat the backside end (or OLB). There are other differences, but for the purpose of the video game we'll just focus on these two.

On the inside zone, the ball carrier would attack the playside guard, the center and backside guard would double team the nose and the FB would seal off the backside end. The frontside guard, tackle and TE zone the tackle, end and linebackers. This double team and FB seal create a cutback lane and the back is reading for the first open window he see's, if all the windows are closed then the cutback lane is open.

The Outside Zone is a bit different. There are two ways to run it, traditonal zone (Denver Broncos) or pin & pull (Colts). Pin and pull is a downblock followed with lineman pulling to the outside. The OZ handles the backside end with the QB bootleg (or those stupid end around fakes everyone uses despite never giving the ball). The ball carriers path is at the playside tackle. Depending on alignment the line wants to double team the playside tackle instead of the backside (like IZ). Again, this creates seal. The FB is leading, but often, they won't even use one and instead go double tight.

The play in question doesn't have any of that. More importanly, the ball carrier gets the ball going to the left, while the line blocks right. It, therefore, cannot be zone because there aren't enough lineman. The back isn't reading anything, he has an assigned hole. The playside lineman are down blocking...and backside lineman are wasting their time.

But it is NOT a zone scheme of any sort.

 

[Sven Draconian]

Edit: I'm not doubting you. Just wanted to give you heads up before you read the next part. I'm basically going off my experiences and what I seen in the video is what we do when we run a Scoop Block, something that was thrown in by my OC in our Zone Blocking Scheme.

Have you ever heard of the Scoop Block or Stretch Block? Basically, the offensive line scoops, or steps at a 45-degree angle to one side. It's actually not very good in my opinion because it leaves the backside open but there are coaches that insist on using it ... such as the offensive coordinator of my semi-pro football team where I coach the offensive line. He claims there are teams that utilize it ... I HATE it because it's always leaving the backside open for that defensive end. We use it with our zone blocking scheme despite how many times I've called for it to be removed.

Basically, the way he says it's supposed to go is that we all step in the direction of the play. Usually, we only do it on outside runs, such as the 38 Pitch, 21 Option, shit like that. An example, when we run the 38 Sweep, despite my urges not to, he asks that I send my OL on a 45-degree stretch block and scoop up anybody that tries to cross in front of us so that the runningback can make a read on the first open hole. The only problem with it is that the damn weakside defensive end recognizes this and they are usually fast as hell and makes the tackle in the backfield.

Rich Rodriguez agrees with you. That's where the zone read came from. He wanted to run his zone, but he didn't want to go double tight. So, the QB reads that end and pull it.

A lot of teams reach block without zoning. Georgia Tech does this all the time with their Rocket pitch (WB toss in NCAA 10). The Jet Sweep that the wildcat uses is scoop blocking (or, depending on where you're from, reach blocking). Very common scheme for sweeping teams.

Zone blocking is different. 1) They aren't trying to hook anyone (where as, the scoop block usually does). 2) They double team someone to seal the cutback lane. All the zone team wants is to cut penetration and get movement...it doesn't matter in what direction because the back will adjust to it. Just get a hat on a hat and push them in whatever direction they want to go. If it's all the way to the sideline, that's fine, the back will cut inside. If they are going to try and fight for the gap, that's fine, they'll hook him.

Anyways, I'm not the be-all-end-all on blocking schemes. I've only been studying for the past three years since I started coaching football and I'm always up for new schemes. I had to grow to like zone blocking but only if ran properly. The way my OC is asking we block just isn't working and he won't listen. Nice guy and all, but he's moving to South Dakota here in a few weeks which most likely leaves me moving up to the OC position if I am still in the area.

I didn't go back and look, but wasn't it you that said the LT should have blocked down on the weakside DE if the LG was going to take the second level leaving the FB to take the WLB? Whoever it was that said that, that makes the most sense instead of leaving the FB to block a 290-lb DE and a hulking LT to try and break down on a fast, more agile linebacker. I know the FB definatly could have chop blocked the DE but personnel-wise, it's makes more sense the other way.

Like I stated in my previous post though, EA Sports definatly needs to invest in some experts on the offensive line and defensive line. Wasn't it a few seasons ago that they brought in someone that was supposedly an offensive lineman and all they did was pretty motion capture the movements made by an offensive lineman? They failed to actually do their research on how the offensive attacks certain defensive fronts. Not every I-Right 32 Dive vs 4-3 Front blocks the same because the Defensive Line won't always line up in the same techniques and linebackers won't always shoot the same gaps. There's no adjustments being made on the offensive line in a game of Madden.

The lineman definitely should have blocked down and left the OLB to the FB (that's the age old lead play).


I have an inkling, and I don't know for certain, but from what I see it looks like the OL reacts to the players assigned position more than anything. They have some sort of checklist that they go off. For a tackle it would be something like this: DE-->OLB-->MLB-->Safety-->DT-->OLB-->Corner

I believe this is why defenses like the 3-2-6 can stop the run, the lineman never react to the extra defensive backs. Same thing with the nickle package, nobody ever seems to react to the nickle-back, even if I put him right near the line.

Certainly there are other factors having to do with suction and so forth, but I definitely think that assignments are dictated by position rather than alignment.

 

[Saluki]

Something else no one seemed to mention is that he doesn't have the game and is basing it off a demo of an incomplete game.

 

[PEYMAN18]

So Apex, you buying this game first day?