Ryan Braun wins appeal of positive test for PEDs. Gob rejoices, MM still banned

[Woy]

All seriousness aside though.....how the fuck are you 20/1 and you still can't hit Octavio fucking Dotel?

 

[EmpireWF]

Jeez, Angus can't handle the fact his boy's a liar/cheat? :kobe:

 

[ralaw]

Seems clear to me that MLB is off the hook, the collector is off the hook, and this is now a case of an arbitrator being completely lost and making a horrible ruling. If MLB pursues this is court and can show precedent, I think they would win. This type of ruling that the arbitrator made was highly unusual.

How are you going to post the collector's education, credentials and experience as a way to justify his actions and then turn around and question the arbitrator? See below for Arbitrator Shyam Das' education, credentials and experience.

Presently Shyam Das is the arbitrator. He lives and works in Philadelphia and has been a member of the Pennsylvania Bar since 1974. Since 1977 he has been self employed as an arbitrator, having previously worked at the University of Pittsburgh Law School as a professor from 1971 through 1977, and a New York City law firm as an associate from 1969-71. He is a member of the American Arbitration Association, the Federal Mediation and Concilation Service, the National Mediation Board, and the Pennsylvania Bureau of Mediation.

Arbitrator Das was born on April 18, 1944 and received a BA in History from Harvard University in 1965, he received a MA in Social Sciences from University of Chicago in 1966, and his law degree from Yale University in 1969.

During the arbitration Mr. Das does not require a court reporter, although I’m almost positive that the parties have this as part of their CBA. He relies on his personal notes in normal situations.

Mr. Das does not list baseball or sports under his arbitrated industries. He lists Aerospace, Automobile, Beverage, Ceramic/Glass, Chemicals, Coal, Communications, Construction, Education, Federal Government, Gas/Electric Power, Health Care, Hotel/Casinos, Local Government, Maritime, Metals, Mining, Office/Clerical, Oil/Gas, Plastic, Police/Fire, Printing, Radio/TV, Ship Building, Transportation, Trucking, Utilities, and Defense. He has arbitrated almost every issue in the labor relations field.

Before questioning the arbitrator I'd like to know what type of information the arbitrator recieved about common protocol in handling samples. Given his background I assume Arbitrator Das has a great wealth of knowledge and ability to obtain information about common practice. There is obviously a breakdown in what is protocol in this case.

Having said that I believe it was Braun's piss and he knows what he did, but at the time of his press conference he knew he was just jumping ahead of the collector and information before it slowly leaked out. However, we've heard these baseball players deny, deny and deny and later to find out they actually did do something. Braun is going to stop talking now, because he knows if he talks too much without the aid of his lawyers the collector can file a slander case against him, which Braun knows he doesn't want any parts of, because information that he doesn't want known would come out.

 

[Woy]

Jeez, Angus can't handle the fact his boy's a liar/cheat? :kobe:

Oh, he mad.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

How are you going to post the collector's education, credentials and experience as a way to justify his actions and then turn around and question the arbitrator? See below for Arbitrator Shyam Das' education, credentials and experience.

The difference, is Braun is questioning the integrity of the collector and insinuating publicly that the collector may have tampered with the sample.

I'm saying the arbitrator blew the decision. I'm not accusing him of some wack job conspiracy theory.

 

[bucky]

The difference, is Braun is questioning the integrity of the collector and insinuating publicly that the collector may have tampered with the sample.

I'm saying the arbitrator blew the decision. I'm not accusing him of some wack job conspiracy theory.

I owe you an apology. I remembered one of your earlier posts incorrectly. I thought you were accusing the Arbitrator of bias, but you actually just mentioned some others were saying this and that you didn't buy into the bias theory.

 

[Colonel Angus]

Apparently the arbitrator is going to release a statement too in the near future explaining his decision. Obviously he decided Braun's side's story was more believable than the urine jockey's. I'm anxious to see what his reasoning was.

 

[Primetime]

Apparently the arbitrator is going to release a statement too in the near future explaining his decision. Obviously he decided Braun's side's story was more believable than the urine jockey's. I'm anxious to see what his reasoning was.

 

THANK YOU FOR THIS GROUND BREAKING NEWS!!!!

 

[Colonel Angus]

 

THANK YOU FOR THIS GROUND BREAKING NEWS!!!!

 

I suck so much fucking dick that I shit out cum.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I don't understand why people say the Ryan Braun case is proof the system works. I'm sorry, when a PED case comes down to what time Federal Express closes on a weekend, what we have is proof that the system must be improved. And as my friend Sarge asked, what did the sample collector put down for "Value/Replacement Cost" on the FedEx shipping slip? Look, I like Braun. I'm all for following procedure and insuring a proper chain of custody. But the question Braun left unanswered in his news conference is just how that elevated level of testosterone got into his test sample.

 

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Jim Caple
I don't understand why people say the Ryan Braun case is proof the system works. I'm sorry, when a PED case comes down to what time Federal Express closes on a weekend, what we have is proof that the system must be improved. And as my friend Sarge asked, what did the sample collector put down for "Value/Replacement Cost" on the FedEx shipping slip? Look, I like Braun. I'm all for following procedure and insuring a proper chain of custody. But the question Braun left unanswered in his news conference is just how that elevated level of testosterone got into his test sample.

I like everything this guy says up to the last sentence. "How" doesn't have to be proven once protocol's been breached? The second protocol's been broken, it opens the door to the evidence losing integrity. Why does Braun have to prove whose urine it is, or how high levels of testosterone ended up in the sample? Just showing how protocol was broken is enough to open that door.

I'm waiting for this new info from the Arbitrator and official statements from MLB. This guy should be doing the same thing.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I don't know what kind of magical statement you guys think this arbitrator is going to come up with. He's going to say the 44 hour gap broke the chain of custody in the collective bargaining, which MLB disputes. There is no smoking gun, otherwise you would have heard about it from the Braun side, because from a PR standpoint if they had something more legitimate than the lame chain of custody stuff, they would use it.

And bucky, I told you before, MLB made their official statement already, about an hour after Braun's presser. They basically said the decision was a joke, and were waiting for the arbitrators official report to come out, at which point they will likely challenge it in court.

And we're still hung up on this garbage?

How" doesn't have to be proven once protocol's been breached? The second protocol's been broken, it opens the door to the evidence losing integrity.

First of all, protocol wasn't breached. Samples sit for 44 hours every time the MLB does a weekend test.

Second of all, even if protocol was breached, every single expert, every single testing agency that has spoken on this in the last week, has said repeatedly that 44 hours doesn't matter and would not corrupt the result. Every single expert, including the head of the IOC testing (the most stringent and well respected testing on the planet), is saying that based on the information in this case, they are baffled as to why the arbitrator would rule this way since the seals were intact.

The arbitrator dun goofed, Braun looks like a fool, and this would be a good time for one of those "deal with it" gifs.

 

[bucky]

He's going to say the 44 hour gap broke the chain of custody in the collective bargaining, which MLB disputes. There is no smoking gun,

The broken protocol IS the smoking gun.

And bucky, I told you before, MLB made their official statement already, about an hour after Braun's presser. They basically said the decision was a joke, and were waiting for the arbitrators official report to come out, at which point they will likely challenge it in court.

Did MLB come out and site in the official, legal documentation that describes how the samples are to be handled and shipped? Or did they just come out and say what they normally do?

And we're still hung up on this garbage?

It's not garbage. We are waiting to find out what the actual handling protocols are, not what MLB has been doing. I'm also waiting to hear more from the Arbitrator.

First of all, protocol wasn't breached. Samples sit for 44 hours every time the MLB does a weekend test.

First, you don't know if protocol was broken or not, unless you've read and understood the legal documents. All we know is that MLB has handled the samples this way.

Second of all, even if protocol was breached, every single expert, every single testing agency that has spoken on this in the last week, has said repeatedly that 44 hours doesn't matter and would not corrupt the result.

That's not the only reason you would have to throw a sample away.

Every single expert, including the head of the IOC testing (the most stringent and well respected testing on the planet), is saying that based on the information in this case, they are baffled as to why the arbitrator would rule this way since the seals were intact.

They know they received a sample with seals. I'm waiting to find out form the Arbitrator on why he ruled the way he did, and if seals could have been tampered with.

The arbitrator dun goofed, Braun looks like a fool, and this would be a good time for one of those "deal with it" gifs.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm not going to rush to judgement.

Protocols are put in place for a reason. If protocols are breached, you have to throw the evidence out. I'm waiting to hear more from the Arbitrator and credible, legal, MLB sources that can clarify what the official/legal protocol is. Until things are cleared up, I'm not rushing to judge anyone, Braun, the Arbitrator, the Currier, or the experts who put the procedures in place.

What I do know is that things need to be tightened up so this doesn't happen again.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

The broken protocol IS the smoking gun.

No it isn't. Not to people with common sense. The seals were intact, that's all that matters since the samples were not handled in an out of the ordinary way.

You are clinging to this technicality (which may not even hold up in court, btw) like you are Braun's mother, or something. Use your brain, bucky. Forget the semantics of badly written policy.

Did MLB come out and site in the official, legal documentation that describes how the samples are to be handled and shipped? Or did they just come out and say what they normally do?

MLB made their official statement, that's all you are going to get from them. They "vehemently" disagree with the arbitrator and are waiting for his report, at which point they will likely challenge it in court if the 44 hour period is the only point of contention.

It's not garbage. We are waiting to find out what the actual handling protocols are, not what MLB has been doing. I'm also waiting to hear more from the Arbitrator.

Who cares what the written policy says? Google the topic and read what the EXPERTS have to say.

Again, why are you so insistent on defending the loophole, and not using common sense? Are you ok with athletes being dirty, so long as they can exploit the rules and get away with it? If so, just say so, I can at least respect that. Clinging to technicalities is weak, my man.

First, you don't know if protocol was broken or not, unless you've read and understood the legal documents. All we know is that MLB has handled the samples this way.

MLB says it wasn't broken, the collector says it wasn't broken, the lab says it wasn't broken. All of those entities are far more credible than Braun.

And besides, i'll say it again, I don't care if some badly written technicality was broken. It's obvious if you have a brain in your skull that it was Braun's piss in that cup, and that it wasn't tampered with.

That's not the only reason you would have to throw a sample away.

How do you know, Mr. "I'm waiting to hear more and you don't know the policy"?

They know they received a sample with seals. I'm waiting to find out form the Arbitrator on why he ruled the way he did, and if seals could have been tampered with.

Sorry, but on the issue of the seals, you are dense.

THE SEALS WERE NOT TAMPERED WITH, THEY WERE IN PRISTINE CONDITION ACCORDING TO THE LAB.

Why is this so hard to understand? Watermarked, tamper proof, impossible to replicate serial numbered seals.

There are ZERO reports of tainted seals. None. Zero. Ziltch. Just Braun insinuating that it could have happened, and hoping people buy into that nonsense, which has clearly worked on a small percentage of people (mostly from Wisconsin, imagine that).

Protocols are put in place for a reason. If protocols are breached, you have to throw the evidence out.

Cling to those technicalities, i'll stick to common sense.


Bob Costas was on The Dan Patrick Show, and tore Braun to shreds. He made a great point. He said, forget the timeline, which science has already debunked, so put that aside. You would have to believe that the collector (or somebody else) broke three watermarked, tamper proof seals designed to be impossible to break without detection, contaminated BOTH of Braun's samples (because both the A & B came up with the same 20/1 ratio) somehow, then resealed the samples somehow despite the fact that the original seals were watermarked, numbered, and everything else. AND, while pulling off this crime, was willing to put himself at risk of a federal felony.

You actually believe that could have occured? You really believe that? If you believe that, you are FUCKING. NUTS.

No motive, no method, no logical chain of events to explain a contamination. Only 'fans' clinging to anything in hopes that this athlete is clean.

The most offensive thing to me, is not that Braun is dirty. I don't really care about that, because I think there are tons of dirty athletes, and I think PED use is still rampant in baseball and most other sports. The offensive thing to me, is Braun's bullshit, the few writers who are pretending to buy it order to stay in good graces with Braun and his agent, and the fact that Braun willingly buried this poor guy in his pathetic attempt to win over the public.

Can we just stop with the lies, and stop with the deflection? Even if Braun didn't intentionally take something, which is entirely possible, he should have just said that and moved on. We wouldn't even be talking about it anymore. Braun made this a bigger story than it had to be, so now that he looks twice as terrible, and well, he made that bed so now he has to lay in it.

 

[CrimsonGhost56]

braun was pissing rainbows and was lucky he got off on a technicality, albeit a very legit technicality

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Travis Tygart, the head of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, referred to the Braun overturn as a "gut-kick" to clean athletes. David Howman, the chief of the World Anti-Doping Agency, said had baseball adopted the WADA code that calls for any appeal to also prove that any chain of custody breach was the cause of the positive test, Braun would be preparing to serve his 50-game suspension instead of shagging flies in smiling vindication.

It's like I said earlier, the precedent has been set by WADA, US Anti Doping Agency, The State of New Jersey, Nevada State Athletic Commission, etc etc etc.

With all of these entities, headed by EXPERTS on doping, in order for chain of custody to result in an overturn, that chain of custody breach must also be THE cause of the positive test.

That was not the case with Braun.

Experts. People who do this for a living and devote their lives to it. Not some arbitrator, not some slimy lawyer, not some athlete desperately clinging to his reputation. The experts in the field, the most respected experts in the case of Tygart and the people from WADA, all agree that this was a bad, bad ruling.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:7612292

Another expert shits on the chain of custody nonsense and agrees that the 44 hour period would not change results. 1:40 if you want to skip.

Braun's explanation is comical, and the arbitrator is lost.


His final statement:

..somehow sitting in some man's home will somehow magically change the results? IT'S IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[bucky]

No it isn't. Not to people with common sense. The seals were intact, that's all that matters since the samples were not handled in an out of the ordinary way.

Did you look up the procedures for handling samples in the legal documentation that describes exactly how they are to be handled? If so, I haven't seen you post it. All I've seen you post is MLB saying they do this all the time. Not the same thing. Procedures are put in place for a reason, to protect the evidence and protect the accused from wrongful conviction.

You are clinging to this technicality (which may not even hold up in court, btw) like you are Braun's mother, or something. Use your brain, bucky. Forget the semantics of badly written policy.

If the policy was poorly written, then it needs to be rewritten. How can you say the written policy is wrong and then say policy was adhered to? So far, in an official capacity, all we have is the Arbitrators ruling. And I'm not clinging to anything, I'm waiting for more official, credible, information. That is using common sense AND using my Brain. You accusing me of being Braun's mother is just the "jump off the deep end" leap I'm trying to avoid. I say wait for more info, and you translate that into "clinging to like mommy". See why I wait for some official ruling instead of taking your word as god? I'm not jumping, leaping or taking a side. I'm WAITING.

MLB made their official statement, that's all you are going to get from them. They "vehemently" disagree with the arbitrator and are waiting for his report, at which point they will likely challenge it in court if the 44 hour period is the only point of contention.

All we've heard from MLB is that they do it this way all the time. We have not heard them say that the actual, official, legal documentation that outlines how samples are to be handled says about this situation. That's what I'm waiting for. Them saying we do this all the time means SHIT to me. How is the sample suppose to be handled/carried, that's what I want to hear from some credible source. Both scientific and ethical policies.

Who cares what the written policy says? Google the topic and read what the EXPERTS have to say.

Everybody should care. Experts WROTE THE OFFICIAL WRITTEN POLICY. Going by the official written policy IS LISTENING TO THE EXPERTS. Either MLB needs to change how they do things to adhere to the policy they are suppose to be using, OR the written policy needs to be changed. But everybody should care about what the official written policy says.

Again, why are you so insistent on defending the loophole, and not using common sense? Are you ok with athletes being dirty, so long as they can exploit the rules and get away with it? If so, just say so, I can at least respect that. Clinging to technicalities is weak, my man.

And again you are leaping to a judgement. Big surprise. Nothing new. How am I defending a loophole? If the official policy is wrong, amend it. I've said from the beginning that things need to be tightened up so that this doesn't happen again. Somehow you take that and make a leap to "I want athletes to be dirty".

Now I want an apology from you. I misrepresented something you said in a post, realized I misrepresented it, and apologized. I did that because you deserved an apology from me over it. You've done the same thing to me quite a few times now. I expect my apology. Really, where have I said that Braun did or did not take any banned substances? Where have I said that I want dirty players? LOL.

MLB says it wasn't broken, the collector says it wasn't broken, the lab says it wasn't broken. All of those entities are far more credible than Braun.

And the Arbitrator is just as credible as any you mentioned. And so far, he has made the most official statement by giving his ruling. I'm waiting to see how MLB counters.

And besides, i'll say it again, I don't care if some badly written technicality was broken. It's obvious if you have a brain in your skull that it was Braun's piss in that cup, and that it wasn't tampered with.

And I'll say it again, everybody should care what the written policy says. And I'm still waiting to see if it was badly written or not. Badly written is still possible. The arbitrator may have had to rule a certain way because of a badly written policy. But I'll wait to see if the policy should be updated or not. Either way, according to the Arbitrator, the written policy was not adhered to.

How do you know, Mr. "I'm waiting to hear more and you don't know the policy"?

The only reason to throw a sample away is if the actual sample went bad over time? Tampering isn't a reason to throw a sample away? If policy says the sample can be questioned, then you can't use it. I'm going to wait to hear more specifics from the Arbitrator on why he made his ruling, and also listen to MLB's experts, NFLPA's experts, and anyone else with credible info. But you'll turn this into me saying it was tampered with. Saying it's possible and saying it was are two different things. There could be some other reason that I'm not aware of that caused the Arbitrator to make his ruling. I'm waiting.

Sorry, but on the issue of the seals, you are dense.

THE SEALS WERE NOT TAMPERED WITH, THEY WERE IN PRISTINE CONDITION ACCORDING TO THE LAB.

All that means to me is the sample had seals when they arrived.

Why is this so hard to understand? Watermarked, tamper proof, impossible to replicate serial numbered seals.

There are ZERO reports of tainted seals. None. Zero. Ziltch.

Does the watermarked seal blow up inside the piss? Cause that's the only way I can think of that would make the seals tamper proof.

Just Braun insinuating that it could have happened, and hoping people buy into that nonsense, which has clearly worked on a small percentage of people (mostly from Wisconsin, imagine that).

So far, I haven't bought into anything. I'm waiting. I haven't make one single statement about Braun's actual innocence or guilt. And it isn't Braun saying what "could" have happened that I'm listening to. I haven't listened to anything Braun has said so far. I haven't seen or heard him speak about it at all. I'm going by what the arbitrator has ruled. At the same time, I've left open the posibility that the Arbitrator was wrong, or that the official/legal policy needs to be amended.

Cling to those technicalities, i'll stick to common sense.

I'm not clinging to any technicality. I'm not making any accusations until I know more.

AND, while pulling off this crime, was willing to put himself at risk of a federal felony.

You actually believe that could have occured? You really believe that? If you believe that, you are FUCKING. NUTS.

The Enron guy is in Prison, nobody saw that coming. I'll wait. Hard to believe things happen all the time.

The most offensive thing to me, is not that Braun is dirty. I don't really care about that, because I think there are tons of dirty athletes, and I think PED use is still rampant in baseball and most other sports. The offensive thing to me, is Braun's bullshit, the few writers who are pretending to buy it order to stay in good graces with Braun and his agent, and the fact that Braun willingly buried this poor guy in his pathetic attempt to win over the public.

That's offensive to me too. But I'm going to wait before I accuse the guy of this. Let the process play out. It may turn out the right way. Then again it may not. But hopefully, this can be stopped from happening again. And I do care about whether he or any athlete is "dirty". I care about PED use. I also don't want to get caught accusing an innocent person. I'm waiting.

Can we just stop with the lies, and stop with the deflection? Even if Braun didn't intentionally take something, which is entirely possible, he should have just said that and moved on. We wouldn't even be talking about it anymore. Braun made this a bigger story than it had to be, so now that he looks twice as terrible, and well, he made that bed so now he has to lay in it.

If he's unaware of taking anything, then what would he have said? Wouldn't he have to have been aware, either at the time, or afterwards to say something? If he's truly unaware, then everything he is doing makes sense, doesn't it? I guess what you are implying is possible, that he found out afterwards and still denies. If that's the case, then I think the suspension should stand, if policy was truly adhered to. Not knowing should not be an excuse.

We have to have the checks and balances to assure the innocent are not convicted. Policy over handling evidence is crucial to help enforce this. Even if he is really guilty, if policy was truly broken, the you have to let the guilty guy go (this time) and then tighten things up so that it never happens again.

 

[kyhadley]

All that means to me is the sample had seals when they arrived.



Does the watermarked seal blow up inside the piss? Cause that's the only way I can think of that would make the seals tamper proof.

I don't think you understand the concept of tamper-proof.

The bottomline is if the container was opened, it is literally impossible for the lab to not know. And the lab said the seals were intact. Nothing entered or left those containers once they were sealed in Braun's presence. That is a fact. We don't need to wait for the arbitrator's report to know that.

 

[bucky]

I don't think you understand the concept of tamper-proof.

I understand what tamper-proof means.

The bottomline is if the container was opened, it is literally impossible for the lab to not know. And the lab said the seals were intact. Nothing entered or left those containers once they were sealed in Braun's presence. That is a fact. We don't need to wait for the arbitrator's report to know that.

It doesn't have to be the same container.

The bottom line is, IF proper protocol wasn't followed, the evidence becomes unusable. I'm waiting to find out if the evidence will actually be usable or not. So far, the Arbitrator says no. And he's the most credible person so far that has made any kind of official ruling. Now lets see if some other credible entity proves the Arbitrator was wrong in his ruling.

And I am waiting for the Arbitrators report to get more details on WHY he considered the evidence unusable.

I also want to hear form MLB on whether protocol was actually broken or not. And MLB saying that they've done things this way for years is not the same thing as actually following the legal protocol.

Things NEED to be tightened up so that this CANNOT happen again.

Rules need to be outlined and followed so that innocent people don't get falsely convicted. That's why they have these strict protocols.