Ryan Braun wins appeal of positive test for PEDs. Gob rejoices, MM still banned

[FirstTimer]

I'll trust all of the experts who say the science is solid, and the doctors at the lab who saw nothing wrong with the sample when it arrived, over wacky conspiracy theories that require all sorts of leaps in faith to be able to connect the dots.

Funny how Braun backed off his grandstanding offer to take a DNA test. Gee, I wonder why.

He allegedly did.

Who the hell knows if he even made the offer. We are dealing with all sorts of "sources" and shit.

We don't know a damn thing right now really and won't until we get that written report from the arbitrator...if we do.

 

[bucky]

There is no signature on the seal (to protect the players identity), just a printed ID# that the player signs off for on a separate document.

So what keeps a seal valid? What keeps it from being invalid? What keeps a new duplicate seal from being put in place?

In order to follow this wacky, improbable conspiracy theory, you would have to believe that the collector (or whoever is OUT TO GET BRAUN in this scenerio) had THREE MORE pre printed seals with the same ID#.

If one person has seals with duplicate ID's, then it's not some wacky, improbable conspiracy theory. It seems possible. Again, I'm not familiar with the process. Or what falesafe's are put in place to make a seal from being duplicatable.

All three seals (sample, bag sample is placed in, box bag is placed in) are sealed up with the player present, then the player signs off on the ID#.

And again, when he lab receives the package, they must file a report on the quality of the seals. They lab reported that the seals were in "pristine" condition.

All the lab can do is report that a seal with the same ID number is intact. What fail-safe's are in place to make sure the seal's are the original?

That was Braun's piss, and it was 20/1.

Prove it. Major League Baseball couldn't. Now that seems like a problem with the process. There should be no question.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a false result, but I also would not at all be surprised if the test was correct and his. For everybody saying, why would he start when he was playing at a high level? Maybe he tried it to recover from an injury, or some nagging injury. But that's all speculation, like almost everything else so far.

All we know is that someone's sample tested positive, tainted or not, and it had Braun's ID on the seal.

I'm gonna wait to hear more - and end up learning more about this process.

My view is, if protocol wasn't adhered to then it's Innocent until proven guilty. If MLB can prove that protocol was adhered to, then the suspension should stand even if Braun didn't knowingly take steriods (like from some kind of medication).

It's a players responsibility to know what they are putting in their body, and it's there responsibility to research it, or have someone else research it for them. For the drug program to work, "I didn't know" can't be an excuse, and the process has to be so tight, that it can't be questioned.

 

[Goober]

I'll trust all of the experts who say the science is solid, and the doctors at the lab who saw nothing wrong with the sample when it arrived, over wacky conspiracy theories that require all sorts of leaps in faith to be able to connect the dots.

Funny how Braun backed off his grandstanding offer to take a DNA test. Gee, I wonder why.

He should take one anyway if he is so sure of himself, he can really stick it to MLB. He won't.

The only source that said Braun back peddled on the DNA offer is Mike Golic's source though isn't it?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Reportedly Braun's team had the science to prove that they could replicate the 20-1 result through some means or another. How isn't clear. A guy wrote a story on it for SI but they didn't publish it. It's available for money on amazon (???). Here's another article that references it:

http://www.chadmoriyama.com/2012/02/ryan-braun-what-you-dont-know-about-his-case-is-important/

Again, unnamed "sources" quoting science.

Google any number of articles on the testing process, and you will see QUOTED experts/doctors/etc saying that testo levels will not artificially be raised based on environment, whether the tester had the sample in his basemen, his fridge, or his kitchen table. It doesnt matter.

And by the way, when you take a sample to FexEx on the weekend, IT SIT IN THE WAREHOUSE until Monday, and is then put on a non temperature controlled airplane. Collectors house/FedEx shelf, who cares?

I find it very, very hard to believe that it wasnt Braun's piss, and I trust the science which is more than 99.9% accurate.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

The only source that said Braun back peddled on the DNA offer is Mike Golic's source though isn't it?

So why doesn't Braun just do it anyway and clear his name?

Somebody told him not to. Probably the union, which is really the root of most problems in baseball.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

So what keeps a seal valid? What keeps it from being invalid? What keeps a new duplicate seal from being put in place?



If one person has seals with duplicate ID's, then it's not some wacky, improbable conspiracy theory. It seems possible. Again, I'm not familiar with the process. Or what falesafe's are put in place to make a seal from being duplicatable.

If this is the case, then nobody will ever lose an appeal again, because they can just claim a duplicate seal.

Ridiculous nonsense, grasping at straws.



All the lab can do is report that a seal with the same ID number is intact. What fail-safe's are in place to make sure the seal's are the original?

Of this is the case, then nobody will ever lose an appeal again, because they can just claim a duplicate seal.

Ridiculous nonsense, grasping at straws.

I dont know for sure, but these seals are probably tamper proof like bank deposit seals, and render an ink or void mark when broken. And I would think there is only one seal per number. Can we use common sense here and stop searching for nonsensical reasoning?

Prove it. Major League Baseball couldn't. Now that seems like a problem with the process. There should be no question.

Again, we need to see the report, but by almost all accounts Braun did not dispute the sample or the science in the appeal, he only disputed the chain of custody technicality.

His PR insinuations and the actual appeal are two different things. I take anything he says publicly with a grain of salt.

You guys sure are willing to grasp at straws to defend these athletes. Amazing.

 

[Goober]

Again, unnamed "sources" quoting science.

Google any number of articles on the testing process, and you will see QUOTED experts/doctors/etc saying that testo levels will not artificially be raised based on environment, whether the tester had the sample in his basemen, his fridge, or his kitchen table. It doesnt matter.

And by the way, when you take a sample to FexEx on the weekend, IT SIT IN THE WAREHOUSE until Monday, and is then put on a non temperature controlled airplane. Collectors house/FedEx shelf, who cares?

I find it very, very hard to believe that it wasnt Braun's piss, and I trust the science which is more than 99.9% accurate.

Unnamed sources, outside of Braun's press conference, that's the only source of information we have here. All we can do is wait for the arbitrator's written explanation or for Braun to talk more.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Unnamed sources, outside of Braun's press conference, that's the only source of information we have here. All we can do is wait for the arbitrator's written explanation or for Braun to talk more.

Not it's not, we have experts, ON THE RECORD, stating that testo levels do not artificially raise based on temperature/environment. Even in this very thread.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

By the way, this is exactly what the Braun side wanted to accomplish with that sham of a presser the other day. Planting seeds of doubt in what looks like a pretty simple scenario.

This piss was dirty, but Braun took advantage of a flawed policy. That's really all there is to this. Anything else is wild, unrealistic speculation. Any credible athletic commission would have laughed at this appeal, but the MLB policy has these swiss cheese holes that Braun's lawyers were able to expose.

If that sample had sat on the FedEx shelf instead of the collectors shelf, we arent even discussing this and Braun is out 50 games.

 

[bucky]

Braun never argued this in his appeal. Braun never argued the science in his appeal. He argued the process, and argued that the sample sat in the collectors house for too long before it went to FedEx.

The science is the actual testing of the urine. Arguing the science is arguing that the test itself came up with inaccurate results. That has absolutely nothing to do with whether the actual urine was his or was/was not tampered with. So what really is the point of your statement? That he's not arguing whether the test result is correct or incorrect, given the urine in the bottle? Arguing the process does imply the sample itself may have been invalid, not the test itself.

His PR argument has been to insinuate that the sample could have been tampered with during the 44 hour period before it got to FedEx, which is pretty absurd and takes quite the leap of faith to buy into for people who have read up on how the process works. For whatever reason, there are people willing to buy into that nonsense.

I'm one of those people that have not read up on the process, so I did not know/do not know how it works. But you still HAVE NOT shown why the process is infallible. And neither has MLB if they could not prove the urine was Braun's. To me, that implies a problem with the process.

I think Braun should have won the appeal based on the bullshit loophole, because technically he's right. But I also think it's pretty clear that he pissed dirty.

I'm not nearly as sure as you are. And I've seen nothing from you that makes it so sure. Only you saying that he's unquestionably dirty.

So we learned that the loophole needs to be removed, OR, that the so called "loop hole" was put in place to protect the integrity of the sample and that the process needs to be more closely adhered to. There should be no question on who belongs to what urine, and whether the urine sample is valid or not. If there is question, and MLB can't prove the validity of the samle, then the process needs to be tightened up.

If he's dirty, then he gets off, and we need to tighten this stuff up so the next guy doesn't get off.

If the process allows for samples to be questionable, then the process needs to be tightened up.

Either way, it appears the process needs to be tightened up.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

There is no question who the urine belongs to, it belongs to Braun.

Show me a tampered seal, show me a lab mix up, show me anything. There is nothing of that sort.

Only this idea that the seals could have been tampered with.

BASED ON WHAT?

I give up, it's clear you guys are buying what Braun is selling, but i've been following drug testing for years and i'm too tired/lazy to go back & forth with people who will argue something like "prove it was his sample" when Braun himself watched the guy seal it up and the seal was intact and "pristine" when it go to the lab. It's clear that you will poke holes every step of the way, and cling to far fetched possibilities.

 

[bucky]

Of this is the case, then nobody will ever lose an appeal again, because they can just claim a duplicate seal.

Ridiculous nonsense, grasping at straws.

I dont know for sure, but these seals are probably tamper proof like bank deposit seals, and render an ink or void mark when broken. And I would think there is only one seal per number. Can we use common sense here and stop searching for nonsensical reasoning?

You would hope that their would be something unique about each seal other than ID that would tie an ID to a seal. I don't know because, up until this morning, I never even thought about the process. But so far, I've heard nothing definite on what makes seals unique.

Again, we need to see the report, but by almost all accounts Braun did not dispute the sample or the science in the appeal, he only disputed the chain of custody technicality.

So how come you aren't waiting to see the report. Cause I agree with the "need to see the report". Until real facts come out, everything is speculation. Why are you jumping to conclusions?

You guys sure are willing to grasp at straws to defend these athletes. Amazing.

Like above, why are you jumping to conclusions. After the reports come out, if enough info comes out with them. their will be plenty of time to crucify him.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

You would hope that their would be something unique about each seal other than ID that would tie an ID to a seal. I don't know because, up until this morning, I never even thought about the process. But so far, I've heard nothing definite on what makes seals unique.



So how come you aren't waiting to see the report. Cause I agree with the "need to see the report". Until real facts come out, everything is speculation. Why are you jumping to conclusions?



Like above, why are you jumping to conclusions. After the reports come out, if enough info comes out with them. their will be plenty of time to crucify him.

Because what are we supposed to do, not start a thread until the report comes out?

Based on the sources who are privy to the appeal, the seals were clean, and all Braun argued was the process and the 44 hour gap being against policy.

If the arbitrator report conflicts with the sources, and there is a broken seal or some other Matlock like shocking smoking gun, i'm with you guys.

Good luck with that, I can't see that happening.

 

[bucky]

Because what are we supposed to do, not start a thread until the report comes out?

Discussing something in a thread and jumping to conclusions, stating things as FACTS before the official reports come out containing the FACTS are two different things. By all means have a thread.

Based on the sources who are privy to the appeal, the seals were clean, and all Braun argued was the process and the 44 hour gap being against policy.

And there is a policy set in place for a reason, otherwise they wouldn't have any policy's in place. If there's a policy against a 44 hour gap, then there must be a reason for it, otherwise it wouldn't exist. Tighten up the procedure so their isn't a gap. Put something in place so if there is a gap, the sample doesn't get tainted through either natural or unnatural causes.

If the arbitrator report conflicts with the sources, and there is a broken seal or some other Matlock like shocking smoking gun, i'm with you guys.

Good luck with that, I can't see that happening.

We'll have to wait and see what the arbitrator's report says, along with what official statements come from MLB. Until then, who knows?

Me personally, I'm very suspicious of the appeal and Braun's innocence, but Baseball has made us that way. I'm still going to wait for official reports and statements before I find him guilty.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Since you guys seem to love these wacky, unrealistic, crazy fantasy scenarios, then i've got one for you, and it's actually far more likely than some crazy tampering story.

This test was taken in Milwaukee. Let's say the collector is a Brewers fan, and a 'little birdy' whispered in his ear that Braun could be dirty, so the guy, knowing or being told of the technicality, sits on the test intentionally in order to render it void in case of a positive. Is that any more far fetched than somebody intentionally tampering with a sample, without a known motive or and evidence or tampered seals?



"Pristine" seals, a positive test, a sample that didn't sit any longer than other weekend tests, with both the lab and Olympic level testing experts stating that time/temp can not corrupt the result. C'mon, people. Get your heads out of the sand.

Do you really think the MLB would witch hunt a squeeky clean star player? If this was a corrupted process, MLB would have sided with the star player. Nobody wanted this to happen, and MLB did not want this can of worms re-opened.

 

[bucky]

This test was taken in Milwaukee. Let's say the collector is a Brewers fan, and a 'little birdy' whispered in his ear that Braun could be dirty, so the guy, knowing or being told of the technicality, sits on the test intentionally in order to render it void in case of a positive. Is that any more far fetched than somebody intentionally tampering with a sample

This is just as likely as the sample being tampered with. This wouldn't surprise me either. Money talks.

"Pristine" seals, a positive test, a sample that didn't sit any longer than other weekend tests, with both the lab and Olympic level testing experts stating that time/temp can not corrupt the result. C'mon, people. Get your heads out of the sand.

According to the arbitrator, MLB has a process that doesn't allow it. There must be a reason. Could it be to protect the sample? I want to hear from MLB on what the drug testing rules are and if in fact protocol was/was not adhered to. Either the arbitrator is flat out wrong, or protocol/process was broken, and the sample should be thrown out. AND, MLB and the Players Union need to tighten up the process, so this doesn't happen again.

Do you really think the MLB would witch hunt a squeeky clean star player? If this was a corrupted process, MLB would have sided with the star player. Nobody wanted this to happen, and MLB did not want this can of worms re-opened.

Why would MLB have to be the ones doing it?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

So now we know something about the collector.

He's a 51-year old man with three college degrees in this field, from University of Wisconsin, Loyola (MD), and a third college that escapes me at the moment (UCLA? I dont remember). He has been working in this field for decades, and knows what he's doing. This is not some 20-year old courier making $7 per hour.

So here you have Braun, because basically he has no other leg to stand on, killing this poor guy in this sham of a presser on Friday, burying him and insinuating that the guy fucked with the sample, and then Braun has THE BALLS to say "I was falsely accused, so I dont want to falsely accuse somebody else" when he just spent 30 fucking minutes passive aggressively finger pointing the guy! I mean, Braun really makes you sick in this situation.

So you have three seals that were not broken, and one of the best labs in the world that determined that the sample was in pristine condition when it arrived. We know time/temp can not corrupt the results based on QUOTED facts by EXPERTS, despite the "sources" from the Braun side afraid to put their names on a statement because they know its bullshit. Plus, the collector had two other samples with him all weekend of the two other players who were tested, so there goes the idea that he mishandled the samples anyway, because the others came up clean.

The entire Braun argument hinges on the idea that this man intentionally fucked with the sample (without breaking the seals). With no motive. And besides the fact that tampering with a sample is nearly impossible, with the way these things are sealed a million times, and with the testing the lab does that would determine multiple urine, etc. You would have to believe that this collector has some sort of Breaking Bad lab in his basement, where he somehow managed to break the three seals, contaminate the sample with some concoction of chemicals, somehow re seal it, and have the experts at the lab in Motreal be none the wiser.

LOL. Ok, sure, that's plausible.

Let's be real, nobody fucked with that sample, and Braun's argument that somebody could have fucked with the sample is preposterous and impossible to take seriously at this point. Braun's PR argument at the presser hinged on the public having NO CLUE how these things work, and throwing around grandstand lawsuit threats that he will never follow up on.

Milwaukee fans and people who are fans of Braun are clinging to whatever they can to make this more complicated than it is. Nobody wants Braun to be dirty, but it is what it is. Braun pissed dirty, this collector didn't realize FedEx was open, and the collectively bargained policy is a joke that needs to be tightened up because the 44 hours means nothing to the scientists. That's what happened. That's it, nothing else to see here. This isn't an episode of CSI.

 

[Primetime]

The written statement will probably be just like every other piece of information out there only talking about the process rather than the sample itself. We'll most likely learn nothing and be right back to where we are now with Braun simply getting off on the technicality.

 

[EmpireWF]

Braun's a bigger cheat than Bonds.

....sorta.

 

[EmpireWF]

Statement from the collector, Dino Laurenzi Jr.:

"On February 24th, Ryan Braun stated during his press conference that there were a lot of things that we learned about the collector, about the collection process, about the way that the entire thing worked that made us very concerned and very suspicious about what could have actually happened. Shortly thereafter, someone who had intimate knowledge of the facts of this case released my name to the media. I am issuing this statement to set the record straight.

"I am a 1983 graduate of the University of Wisconsin and have received Master Degrees from the University of North Carolina and Loyola University of Chicago. My full-time job is the director of rehabilitation services at a health care facility. In the past, I have worked as a teacher and an athletic trainer, including performing volunteer work with Olympic athletes. I am a member of both the National Athletic Trainers' Association and the Wisconsin Athletic Trainers' Association.

"I have been a drug collector for Comprehensive Drug Testing since 2005 and have been performing collections for Major League Basebal's Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program since that time. I have performed over 600 collections for MLB and also have performed collections for other professional sports leagues. I have performed post-season collections for MLB in four separate seasons involving five different clubs.

"On October 1, 2011, I collected samples from Mr. Braun and two other players. The CDT collection team for that day, in addition to me, included three chaperones and a CDT coordinator. One of the chaperones was my son, Anthony. Chaperones do not have any role in the actual collection process, but rather escort the player to the collection area.

"I followed the same procedure in collecting Mr. Braun's sample as I did in the hundreds of other samples I collected under the Program. I sealed the bottles containing Mr. Braun's A and B samples with specially-numbered, tamper-resistant seals, and Mr. Braun signed a form certifying, among other things, that the specimens were capped and sealed in his presence and that the specimen identification numbers on the top of the form matched those on the seals. I placed the two bottles containing Mr. Braun's samples in a plastic bag and sealed the bag. I then placed the sealed bag in a standard cardboard Specimen Box which I also sealed with a tamper-resistant, correspondingly-numbered seal placed over the box opening. I then placed Mr. Braun's Specimen Box, and the Specimen Boxes containing the samples of the two other players, in a Federal Express Clinic Pack. None of the sealed Specimen Boxes identified the players. I completed my collections at Miller Park at approximately 5:00 p.m.

"Given the lateness of the hour that I completed my collections, there was no FedEx office located within 50 miles of Miller Park that would ship packages that day or Sunday. Therefore, the earliest that the specimens could be shipped was Monday, October 3. In that circumstance, CDT has instructed collectors since I began in 2005 that they should safeguard the samples in their homes until FedEx is able to immediately ship the sample to the laboratory, rather than having the samples sit for one day or more at a local FedEx office. The protocol has been in place since 2005 when I started with CDT and there have been other occasions when I have had to store samples in my home for at least one day, all without incident.

"The FedEx Clinic Pack containing Mr. Braun's samples never left my custody. Consistent with CDT's instructions, I brought the FedEx Clinic Pack containing the samples to my home. Immediately upon arriving home, I placed the FedEx Clinic Pack in a Rubbermaid container in my office which is located in my basement. My basement office is sufficiently cool to store urine samples. No one other than my wife was in my home during the period in which the samples were stored. The sealed Specimen Boxes were not removed from the FedEx Clinic Pack during the entire period in which they were in my home. On Monday, October 3, I delivered the FedEx Clinic Pack containing Mr. Braun's Specimen Box to a FedEx office for delivery to the laboratory on Tuesday, October 4. At no point did I tamper in any way with the samples. It is my understanding that the samples were received at the laboratory with all tamper-resistant seals intact.

"This situation has caused great emotional distress for me and my family. I have worked hard my entire life, have performed my job duties with integrity and professionalism, and have done so with respect to this matter and all other collections in which I have participated.

"Neither I nor members of my family will make any further public comments on this matter. I request that members of the media, and baseball fans, whatever their views on this matter, respect our privacy. And I would like to sincerely thank my family and friends for their overwhelming support through this difficult time. Any future inquiries should be directed to my attorney Boyd Johnson of Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP."

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7...laurenzi-jr-collected-samples-ryan-braun-case

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7...case-sample-collector-says-followed-protocols