soooo..moss to vikings.......v jax to new england?

[Esjay]

I wasn't placing the receivers in order of how good a player they are. I only numbered to make sure I had at least 10, as you said.

Btw, Santonio Holmes as the 5th best receiver isn't that far of a stretch. He's certainly a lot closer to it than Jackson.

 

[Tailback U]

Moss must be good if '07 was one of his down years. I think it's hilarious how you say your argument is based off of consistency when you are talking about Randy Moss, someone who consistently takes plays off and you base this off of highlight reels, fucking highlight reels.

I meant 2005-2006 and 2006-2007, obviously.

Consistency = Being near the top of the league in every statistical category year in and year out. Which Moss has done in every season that he's played a full season in.

Exactly Moss, actually in THE PRIME of his career didn't have amazing stats under Norv Turner. This when he was coming right off of PRIME seasons.

lol...Because Norv Turner has lit up defenses everywhere he has gone. Has nothing to do with Turner or the age of Moss and everything to do with Art Shell, Kerry Collins, and the shittyness of the Raiders.

You don't understand the difference that Moss makes when he is on the field.

Vincent Jackson is a damn good receiver because of his size and speed, but he doesn't come close to Moss in terms of understanding defenses, setting up cornerbacks and safeties, body control, ball adjustment, and making circus like catches the likes of which nobody has ever seen before.

Some of Randy just last season:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yFP9ZKBzZc&feature=related[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x0leGgnvM0[/ame]

See Randy abuse the young, speedy Vontae Davis:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jed_lf_5ieI[/ame]

2 seasons ago:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7st-xEfDZo&feature=related[/ame]

I mean really, what makes you think that 3 games into this season he is so much worse than last season?

 

[NAHSTE]

I find it hilarious that Moss's numbers in the season that Aso is trying to knock him for are actually better than Vincent Jackson's career highs.

 

[Fox1994]

Pass Attempts: Chargers 519, Patriots 592

So the Patriots threw the ball 73 more times and Moss has 15 more catches? Yes, I must say bravo. The catches stat right there definitely shows Moss is better. You got me, bro.

Who is Vincent Jackson competing with for balls? I know Moss had to compete with Wes Welker. Who else is getting thrown to in San Diego besides Antonio Gates? I honestly don't know, I'm not just saying this to prove a point.

Besides the fact that Moss had better players on his team, he also routinely draws double-teams. He's one of the best in the league, dude. There's no debating it. He's better than Jackson. Jackson is good because of Rivers, but Brady never threw for more than 28 TDs without Moss... He hasn't thrown for less with him (not to say Brady isn't an amazing quarterback - he is).

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, it just doesn't seem an informed one or one with much factual basis.

 

[Aso]

Who is Vincent Jackson competing with for balls? I know Moss had to compete with Wes Welker. Who else is getting thrown to in San Diego besides Antonio Gates? I honestly don't know, I'm not just saying this to prove a point.

Besides the fact that Moss had better players on his team, he also routinely draws double-teams. He's one of the best in the league, dude. There's no debating it. He's better than Jackson. Jackson is good because of Rivers, but Brady never threw for more than 28 TDs without Moss... He hasn't thrown for less with him (not to say Brady isn't an amazing quarterback - he is).

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, it just doesn't seem an informed one or one with much factual basis.

Jackson caught 21.4% of Rivers completions, while Moss caught 22.3% of Brady's. Why is that 0.9% such a big showing in how much better Moss supposedly is? He caught slightly amount more of his completions. I have also used plenty of factual information. If factual information in this discussion is merely stats then this is a retarded discussion to be having.

 

[NAHSTE]

Jackson caught 21.4% of Rivers completions, while Moss caught 22.3% of Brady's. Why is that 0.9% such a big showing in how much better Moss supposedly is? He caught slightly amount more of his completions. I have also used plenty of factual information. If factual information in this discussion is merely stats then this is a retarded discussion to be having.

First time I've agreed with you in this thread.

 

[Aso]

I meant 2005-2006 and 2006-2007, obviously.

Consistency = Being near the top of the league in every statistical category year in and year out. Which Moss has done in every season that he's played a full season in.



lol...Because Norv Turner has lit up defenses everywhere he has gone. Has nothing to do with Turner or the age of Moss and everything to do with Art Shell, Kerry Collins, and the shittyness of the Raiders.

You don't understand the difference that Moss makes when he is on the field.

Vincent Jackson is a damn good receiver because of his size and speed, but he doesn't come close to Moss in terms of understanding defenses, setting up cornerbacks and safeties, body control, ball adjustment, and making circus like catches the likes of which nobody has ever seen before.

I mean really, what makes you think that 3 games into this season he is so much worse than last season?

Jackson isn't in the top of the league in stats year in and your out because of Norv Turner.

I didn't say it had anything to do with the age of Moss. He isn't as good now as then of course. I said he came from some great seasons in Minnesota and came to Oakland and his stats went down mainly because of Turners system. Remember in '05 when everyone one was questioning 'Are the Raiders using Moss correctly?' Well that was because he was more a distraction while catching a deep pass a few times a game instead of regularly being in the game plan, getting the ball to your best player as much as you can etc. Jackson is playing the same role Moss was at that time. Remember Jerry Porter AND Lamont Jordan both had more catches than Moss. That was all on the shoulders of Norv Turner.

The Art Shell era was a disaster and I'm not gonna go into that. I'm gonna strictly go on Turners' 05 season. In '06 the QB's were awful, the O-line was awful, the offensive philosophy wasn't one that worked and it was the worst offense I have personally ever witnessed.

I didn't say he was so much worse than last season.

 

[Scorask]

Jackson caught 21.4% of Rivers completions being single covered, while Moss caught 22.3% of Brady's being double/triple covered. Why is that 0.9% such a big showing in how much better Moss supposedly is? He caught slightly amount more of his completions. I have also used plenty of factual information. If factual information in this discussion is merely stats then this is a retarded discussion to be having.

Fixed it for you.

Vincent Jackson is no Randy Moss, and never will be. This really isn't even debatable.

 

[Houston]

This just in from Vincent Jacksons Twitter account.

"I saw this argument on some site called vsndaily today. Some guy was trying to say I was a better receiver then Randy Moss, that nigga was trippin".

 

[Aso]

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2010/10/06/pff-breakdown-randy-moss-to-the-vikings/

We all know that the Minnesota Vikings have been struggling with their passing attack in 2010. The quest to fix that problem took an unlikely turn with the return of arguably the greatest receiver ever to put on purple, Randy Moss.

The whys and hows and whats of the trade may never be sorted out, but we can definitely look at both teams — and Moss — and get a sense of what the impact will be on the football field. Having tracked it all since the start of the 2008 season, we feel like we might have some unique perspective in what is the most-covered NFL news event of the year.

The Vikings have gone after Moss in the hope that he can give them what Sidney Rice did last season. The Patriots obviously don’t think they need what Moss can bring, getting a third-round pick for a player that has scored exactly fifty touchdowns in his fifty-two games as a Patriot.

For Minnesota, Rice was Brett Favre‘s safety net — if he was in trouble, he could throw it to Rice, and Rice would make something happen. Favre has said himself that Rice allowed him to throw it to him even if he was covered, and not having him in the lineup this season goes a long way to explaining why Favre has already thrown more picks than he had by Week 14 last season.

This is the key to the Moss trade. Rice gave the Vikings what Moss gave them before he was traded away in 2005 — the ability to make a quarterback look better than he is by fighting for a ball in the air, and keeping it away from defenders.

Does Moss still have that ability?

Moss: Breaking him down

On the surface, Moss and Rice look like they had similar seasons last year. They saw a similar number of snaps, were separated by fewer than 60 receiving yards in the regular season, and had only one catch separating them. The difference came in how those catches came about. Rice received a PFF grade of +22.0 for his receiving work, Moss just +7.2.

Rice was thrown at 120 times in the ’09 regular season and only one interception came from those throws. Moss was thrown at 15 times more, but seven interceptions came from the throws intended for Moss.

The only players in the NFL to have more interceptions recorded when they were the primary target were Calvin Johnson (12), Carolina’s Steve Smith (11), Antonio Bryant (10), Reggie Wayne (10), and Terrell Owens (eight). Four of those five players were playing with quarterbacks (or multiple quarterbacks) who threw for 19 or more interceptions on the season. Tom Brady threw 13 interceptions last season, which means more than half of them were intended for Moss.

Of those 138 targets, Rice dropped just three balls last season. Moss dropped eight. In 2008 he dropped 11, and this season he has already registered a drop in each of his opening four games. Moss is no longer a safe target for quarterbacks looking to get rid of the ball; if anything, he is becoming more of a risk as time goes on.

Much was made of Moss getting off of Revis Island in Week 2 this season with a beautiful one-handed catch for a touchdown, but that doesn’t tell the story of that game. Moss was thrown at 10 times, recorded just one 4-yard reception outside of that touchdown, and dropped a ball. Not only that, but Brady was picked off twice in the game when throwing towards Moss.

This season, Moss has been thrown at 23 times, and recorded just nine receptions. His yards-per-reception average remains healthy at 15.4, but just three plays account for 101 of his 139 yards. His average yards per target is a flimsy 6.04 yards. The first big catch came on a quick screen against the Bengals in Week 1. The second was that one-handed catch over Revis against the Jets in Week 2. Without taking anything away from a spectacular catch, Revis was visibly troubled by his hamstring, and the Jets have since suggested there was a blown coverage on that play. His longest play from scrimmage this season was a 35-yard touchdown against the Buffalo Bills, beating coverage from Reggie Corner in the slot. Moss lined up outside with Aaron Hernandez behind him, and Corner never got into a good position, trailing the play the entire way.

How good has he been since 2007′s explosion?

We were only in our trial phase in 2007 when Moss and the Patriots had their legendary season, but there’s little doubt that he was one of the 10 best receivers in the game that year.

But judged solely by our rankings, Moss has been a good, not great, receiver since the 2008 season. In 2008, he graded 49th out of 111 qualifying players based on his performance in the passing game. In 2009, he ranked 22nd out of 107. Thus far in 2010, with Week 4 yet to be completely graded, he’s firmly in the bottom 20 percent of the league.

In 2008, he outproduced his raw standing. He ranked 19th in yards after the catch, 21st in yards. His obvious strength was touchdowns (11), and without interceptions being thrown his way (three), he produced like a top-1o wideout. However, the negatives were fairly clear. He dropped one out of every 10 passes, a very high number, and only forced four missed tackles, a very low one.

 

[Aso]

He used to be great, now he's just good.

 

[Senser81]

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2010/10/06/pff-breakdown-randy-moss-to-the-vikings/

A pointless article. The whole premise is wrong. Judging Moss' effectiveness by "how he fights for the ball" is one of the dumbest things I've heard, because that isn't the key to his success. Moss is a big-play, downfield threat. Even if he has zero catches, the opposing defense still has to account for him.

And LOL at drawing any conclusion based on his post-2007 stats. Moss' 2007 season was one of the best in NFL history. In 2008, Moss spent the entire year getting underthrown by Matt Cassel. To think that Moss would continue along at his 2007 pace and have 1500 yards/23 TDs with Matt Cassell throwing him passes is INCREDIBLY stupid. In 2009, Moss was back with Brady and once again led the NFL in TD catches and had a great year. Moss hasn't played all that well in 2010, but the season is only 4 games old. Sheesh.

 

[PP]

lol at randy just being good. the guy is a monster. Look at how easy he makes those catches look. Last year moss had some back issues which obviously had an effect on him. This year he is healthy and is just as dangerous as ever. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to put down the crack pipe.

 

[Houston]

He used to be great, now he's just good.

Jackson has never been great or even better then Moss.

Jackson wouldn't get 1/3 the coverage Moss got yesterday, because he doesn't make as much as an impact as Moss.

 

[NAHSTE]

A pointless article. The whole premise is wrong. Judging Moss' effectiveness by "how he fights for the ball" is one of the dumbest things I've heard, because that isn't the key to his success. Moss is a big-play, downfield threat. Even if he has zero catches, the opposing defense still has to account for him.

And LOL at drawing any conclusion based on his post-2007 stats. Moss' 2007 season was one of the best in NFL history. In 2008, Moss spent the entire year getting underthrown by Matt Cassel. To think that Moss would continue along at his 2007 pace and have 1500 yards/23 TDs with Matt Cassell throwing him passes is INCREDIBLY stupid. In 2009, Moss was back with Brady and once again led the NFL in TD catches and had a great year. Moss hasn't played all that well in 2010, but the season is only 4 games old. Sheesh.

What's better, is Aso tried to discredit other arguments because they only relied on stats...Then he posts some long winded article which makes up fake stats.

Great argument you got going here, Aso.

 

[Esjay]

What the fuck is profootballfocus?

 

[Aso]

This just in from Vincent Jacksons Twitter account.

"I saw this argument on some site called vsndaily today. Some guy was trying to say I was a better receiver then Randy Moss, that nigga was trippin".

From the person who admittedly said they only like to watch football when it's a shootout and who used to say your favorite teams were Pittsburgh, Jacksonville, and Houston.

 

[Aso]

Moss right now is the same type of receiver that Desean Jackson is (Moss is better tha Desean) He makes those great catches when he has outrun everyone. He doesn't outjump players anymore, he's not making the type of catches Larry Fitzgerald was making in the '08 playoffs like he used to. He's a very good player but not a great one anymore.

 

[NAHSTE]

Moss right now is the same type of receiver that Desean Jackson is (Moss is better tha Desean) He makes those great catches when he has outrun everyone. He doesn't outjump players anymore, he's not making the type of catches Larry Fitzgerald was making in the '08 playoffs like he used to. He's a very good player but not a great one anymore.

And Vincent Jackson is...what exactly?

 

[Tailback U]

Jackson isn't in the top of the league in stats year in and your out because of Norv Turner.

I didn't say it had anything to do with the age of Moss. He isn't as good now as then of course. I said he came from some great seasons in Minnesota and came to Oakland and his stats went down mainly because of Turners system. Remember in '05 when everyone one was questioning 'Are the Raiders using Moss correctly?' Well that was because he was more a distraction while catching a deep pass a few times a game instead of regularly being in the game plan, getting the ball to your best player as much as you can etc. Jackson is playing the same role Moss was at that time. Remember Jerry Porter AND Lamont Jordan both had more catches than Moss. That was all on the shoulders of Norv Turner.

His stats went down in Oakland for a number of reasons. Moss has never been a possession WR and has only been the leading WR on his team 4 out of the 11 seasons in his career.

Kerry Collins has a 55.8 career completion percentage, he completed even less than that (55.3%) with Moss in 05 despite throwing most of his passes to halfbacks. Factor in all of that with the Raiders horrid OL that gave up 45 sacks that year, and you have all the reasons as to why Moss' numbers declined. And like I said before, even despite playing in quite possibly the worst offense in the league, he still had 60 catches, 1008 yards, and 8 TDs.

Oaklands offense under Turner ranked 23rd in points per game in 2005 and 32nd in 2006. Yet even then, in one of the worst offenses in the league, Moss put up numbers similar to what Jackson has done playing for the 2nd highest scoring offense (2008) and 4th (2009) in the league.

Comparing Turner's offense in Oakland to his offense in San Diego is seriously retarded. The personnel is entirely different and the scheme and gameplan is entirely different.

The Chargers ranked 20th in rushing attempts per game in 2008 and 18th in 2009.

Rivers led the league in yards per completion in 2008 and 2009. This isn't the Norv Turner offense of old, this is Phillip Rivers' offense. Rivers calls the shots and pulls the trigger.

Don't you think, that if Jackson was so good and one of the best deep ball receivers in the league, that he would have been able to showcase his downfield ability for more than 1000 yards and 8 TDs in the last 2 seasons?

So far, in 2010 and without Jackson, the Chargers offense leads the league in total yards per game, is 3rd in passing yards per game, 1st in the league with pass plays over 20+ yards, and Rivers is once again far ahead of everyone else, averaging 9.4 yards per completion.

And guess what, they don't even have Vincent Jackson nor do they need him one bit. He's been replaced by an undrafted wide receiver out of the University of Wyoming.