The breakdown of P4P meaning and fighters

[EmpireWF]

I dont agree with your rankings, but I do like the 'rise, dropping and neutral', nice add on

but I find it funny that Silva is on the rise at 2, but Fedor who is fighting the number 2 HW in the world is not on the rise and guys like Machida and Torres under him can pass him up according to your system it seems

Why would Fedor be on the rise, he has not fought since January? At least thats how I understand his +/- stuff.

Silva just fought in April and was never in danger against an undefeated challenger

 

[Liquidrob]

Why would Fedor be on the rise, he has not fought since January? At least thats how I understand his +/- stuff.

Silva just fought in April and was never in danger against an undefeated challenger

Maybe I interpreted it wrong, figured he just blasted a high ranked fighter (at the time) in his last fight and is going to fight the number 2 HW in the world in a month or so, if he is in the 3 spot he has room to move up, seems like Fedor has no shot to move up and would have beating 3 of the top 10 HWs in the world if he beats Barnett

Silva would not get an ‘on the rise’ from me for that last fight, Thales had a great record, but didn’t have any wins to be even ranked high, Silva just coasted against a guy who was out classed and probably shouldn’t have been in there to begin with

Also, Silva is already number 2 in his rankings, so pretty tough to be on the rise with GSP in front of you fighting the number 1 challenger for the belt next in Alves

I’m splitting hairs, but that’s what we do in this thread

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Nice rankings, but get off the fence and put them in order, it wont hurt there feelings!

Shouldnt be tough to rate Brown, actually he is kind of like when Silva burst onto the UFC scene, Silva and Brown were both good figthers, but no one was going crazy over them than they come and and beat a champ twice who was dominate for a long time in Faber and Rich and Silva was right in the mix after that just like Brown is now

Case could be made that Uriah was/is better than Rich which I think he was anyway

Actually, Silva was in the mix after beating Leben, Rich and than Lutter, so putting Brown in for beating Uriah, Garcia and Uriah again is not that hard to do

I did rank them...Silva, GSP, and Torres...I'm actually close to putting Torres ahead of GSP.

+points go to guys who haven't lost in an eternity. It is tough to get a long win streak going in this sport, and I like to reward the guys who do.

Maybe its because I haven't seen a whole lot of Brown before Faber I, but I have a hard time ranking him because if I imagine a catch-weight fight with Brown vs. whomever, I'd probably pick the other guy more often than not. Might lose some money, but that's just MO.

 

[Steel Mamba]

I dont agree with your rankings, but I do like the 'rise, dropping and neutral', nice add on

but I find it funny that Silva is on the rise at 2, but Fedor who is fighting the number 2 HW in the world is not on the rise and guys like Machida and Torres under him can pass him up according to your system it seems

It's not a knock on Fedor at all, of course Fedor can move to that #1 spot but if things shake out the way I think they will then I don't see him pushing down GSP or Silva in the next 6 months or so. I predict both GSP and Silva will win and put on good performances against two very solid contenders, and given their level of skill I just can't see them moving down after that even if Fedor does beat Barnett. So, it's not so much a matter of Fedor's ability to raise, rather it's an issue with either GSP or Silva dropping out of the top two.

Also, this is just my short-term projections, so keep that in mind too.

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

I did rank them...Silva, GSP, and Torres...I'm actually close to putting Torres ahead of GSP.

+points go to guys who haven't lost in an eternity. It is tough to get a long win streak going in this sport, and I like to reward the guys who do.

Maybe its because I haven't seen a whole lot of Brown before Faber I, but I have a hard time ranking him because if I imagine a catch-weight fight with Brown vs. whomever, I'd probably pick the other guy more often than not. Might lose some money, but that's just MO.

Agreed on this. If Brown is fighting catchweight against more than a handful of LW's I know, im picking Brown to lose. (And if Brown and Faber fight again, im picking Urijah). Of course Brown will attribute this to size, which is fine, but doesnt change the fact. Hence why I continuously harped on who has Brown really beaten in his time. A win over an impressive Aldo would definitely help his ranks with me tho.

 

[EmpireWF]

Frankly, both GSP and Fedor are fighting the top challengers in their weight class this summer. So if both win, who should be #1?

 

[Steel Mamba]

Frankly, both GSP and Fedor are fighting the top challengers in their weight class this summer. So if both win, who should be #1?

That's where I think resumes have to get put aside, since at that point both guys have pratically cleaned out their own divisions, and you instead break down their skills. Who's the more talented fighter between the two? Really IMO it's splitting hairs, but like I mentioned earlier I can think of more bad match-ups throughout the weight divisions for Fedor than I could for GSP. So, to me GSP has the slight edge over Fedor right now.

 

[Steel Mamba]

I dont agree with your rankings, but I do like the 'rise, dropping and neutral', nice add on

but I find it funny that Silva is on the rise at 2, but Fedor who is fighting the number 2 HW in the world is not on the rise and guys like Machida and Torres under him can pass him up according to your system it seems

Also, you could pretty much argue that Torres is the Fedor of the Batam weight division. Look at it like this who at batam weight is going to beat this guy? Unless Faber drops down there's really not many guys who have a good chance against him. With Fedor on the other hand Barnett has a good shot at winning against him, who knows what may happen if he fights AA again, and there's a few guys who could give him a tough match in the UFC if he ever goes that route. So, who knows Torres could very well move up, I'm not saying it's a for sure thing, but just a possibility.

With Machida we've never seen anyone as dominate as this guy has been. The only thing left for him to do is to continue to build his resume against top contenders. The talent is there, he just needs the resume part now. With a win over Shogun that's two victories over top 10 P4P fighters, on my list at least. Then I imagine Rampage, if he beats Rashad, would be next in line to fight Machida. If he wins there too, that's 3 wins over top 10 P4P fighters. Forget cleaning out the LHW division, Machida is about to clean out the top 10 list! lol

 

[Liquidrob]

Agreed on this. If Brown is fighting catchweight against more than a handful of LW's I know, im picking Brown to lose. (And if Brown and Faber fight again, im picking Urijah). Of course Brown will attribute this to size, which is fine, but doesnt change the fact. Hence why I continuously harped on who has Brown really beaten in his time. A win over an impressive Aldo would definitely help his ranks with me tho.

I dont think you and Larry are talking about the same thing

He said Catch Weight probably meaning a P4P match up, you are saying Brown at a catchweight against LWs were he shouldnt be favorite because he is a 145er and would be small

Larry phrased it wrong

 

[Liquidrob]

That's where I think resumes have to get put aside, since at that point both guys have pratically cleaned out their own divisions, and you instead break down their skills. Who's the more talented fighter between the two? Really IMO it's splitting hairs, but like I mentioned earlier I can think of more bad match-ups throughout the weight divisions for Fedor than I could for GSP. So, to me GSP has the slight edge over Fedor right now.

Agreed for the most part

I can make a case for Fedor being number 1 and GSP being number 1, if you compare straight up skill set GSP is as good as they come, if they fought it would be a pick em' fight in my eyes with Fedor getting the edge because of his intangibles and never being broken in a fight, but I can also see GSP taking Fedor down over and over and winning a 5 round decision

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

I dont think you and Larry are talking about the same thing

He said Catch Weight probably meaning a P4P match up, you are saying Brown at a catchweight against LWs were he shouldnt be favorite because he is a 145er and would be small

Larry phrased it wrong

Even in that instance it doesnt change what im saying. Even anyone on your p4p list (including Ayoki by sub) would beat Brown in a p4p situation IMO.

 

[Liquidrob]

Also, you could pretty much argue that Torres is the Fedor of the Batam weight division. Look at it like this who at batam weight is going to beat this guy? Unless Faber drops down there's really not many guys who have a good chance against him. With Fedor on the other hand Barnett has a good shot at winning against him, who knows what may happen if he fights AA again, and there's a few guys who could give him a tough match in the UFC if he ever goes that route. So, who knows Torres could very well move up, I'm not saying it's a for sure thing, but just a possibility.

With Machida we've never seen anyone as dominate as this guy has been. The only thing left for him to do is to continue to build his resume against top contenders. The talent is there, he just needs the resume part now. With a win over Shogun that's two victories over top 10 P4P fighters, on my list at least. Then I imagine Rampage, if he beats Rashad, would be next in line to fight Machida. If he wins there too, that's 3 wins over top 10 P4P fighters. Forget cleaning out the LHW division, Machida is about to clean out the top 10 list! lol

Torres has talked about moving up because there is no money in the 135 and 145 class, but he cant hang with the 155ers, not the top ones atleast, he just sint strong enough IMO

Best money fight he can make is against Uriah or try and hold 2 belts and beat Brown

Machida has a shot to be amazing historically like Fedor, only thing would be his decisions, but he is finishing now which is nice, if he beats Shogun and Rampage he would be 1/2 with Fedor and no one could really say anything

 

[Liquidrob]

Even in that instance it doesnt change what im saying. Even anyone on your p4p list (including Ayoki by sub) would beat Brown in a p4p situation IMO.

Thats not saying much seeing as I have him at only 8, not like I put him at 4 or something

In a P4P match up, skills set for skill set, Brown has shown the skills in his weight class to hang with and be compared with almost anyone

Good boxing, power, good chin, cardio, relentless takedowns, takedown defense, good top game and defense

He along with probabaly only GSP and Machida can dictate where the fight goes

 

[Liquidrob]

Mike Brown MFers!

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[Liquidrob]

Now the fun part, trying to rank the top 10, comments, concerns and argueing will be welcomed

1. Fedor Emelianenko 30-1-0
2. Georges St. Pierre 18-2-0
3. Anderson 'And1' Silva 24-4-0
4. Miguel Torres 37-1-0
5. BJ Penn 13-5-1
6. Lyoto Machida 15-0-0
7. Quinton 'Rampage' Jackson 30-7-0
8. Mike Thomas Brown 22-4-0
9. Mauricio 'Shogun' Rua 18-3-0
10. Shinya Aoki 20-4-0

Thoughts? Who should be out? Who should be in? Your 10?

Revised Top 10 after Saturday night

1. Fedor Emelianenko
1a. Georges St. Pierre
3. Anderson 'And1' Silva
4. Miguel Torres
5. BJ Penn
6. Lyoto Machida
7. Quinton 'Rampage' Jackson
8. Mike Thomas Brown
9. Mauricio 'Shogun' Rua
10. Shinya Aoki

GSP moves to the '1a' spot, skill set wise GSP is the best in the game, only thing that keeps him from being the undisputed number 1 is the loss to Serra IMO which he brutally avenged, but Fedor has no such black mark on his record

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I've said it before, and i'll stand by it. BJ Penn is overated.

He's 4-4 in his last 8, and these days is the epitome of a guy who beats who he should beat, and can't beat top guys. The proof:

He can't even hang with GSP, let alone beat him, he lost to Matt Hughes, and lost to Machida. Don't get me wrong, there is no shame in any of those defeats, but a top 10 p4p guy should be able to win a couple of those.

His last four wins are Sherk, Joe Daddy, Pulver, and Renzo Gracie. Gracie is a good win, but you can argue he hasn't beaten a top contender since the 90's (DQ win over Frank aside). No top fighter should lose to Stevenson. Pulver has been washed up for years. Post roid Sherk has shown nothing.

Penn has not fought at the level of a top 10 p4p guy in many years. He's a dangerous fighter, but he dosen't belong on a list like this.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I've said it before, and i'll stand by it. BJ Penn is overated.

He's 4-4 in his last 8, and these days is the epitome of a guy who beats who he should beat, and can't beat top guys. The proof:

He can't even hang with GSP, let alone beat him, he lost to Matt Hughes, and lost to Machida. Don't get me wrong, there is no shame in any of those defeats, but a top 10 p4p guy should be able to win a couple of those.

His last four wins are Sherk, Joe Daddy, Pulver, and Renzo Gracie. Gracie is a good win, but you can argue he hasn't beaten a top contender since the 90's (DQ win over Frank aside). No top fighter should lose to Stevenson. Pulver has been washed up for years. Post roid Sherk has shown nothing.

Penn has not fought at the level of a top 10 p4p guy in many years. He's a dangerous fighter, but he dosen't belong on a list like this.

BJ Penn @ 155 > BJ Penn @ 170. All of those losses he's taken aren't in his weight class (IIRC, the Machida match was in K1 and was a catch weight or open weight or something). The last time he lost at 155 was like...7 or 8 years ago. He moved up on weight because there was no one to fight at 155. Heck, there still isn't...but KenFlo will give it a shot.

Penn's lack of success at advanced weights is why he isn't in a class with Fedor and GSP and he hasn't shown dominance like Torres and And1 in a while...hence why he is probably on that 3rd tier...Machida will jump him, IMO, with a title defense or two...but, when I look at P4P fighters...I like to see how they dominate their weight class before other factors, and without a doubt, BJ dominates that lightweight class, which is why he gets put in that 3rd tier for me, even though he's taken some losses at 170 lately.

 

[Liquidrob]

larry beat me to, only 1 loss at 155 to jens in his 3rd fight ever, actually was 2 seconds away from a sub win in the 2nd round

bj at 155 is a p4p beast

bj actually fought lyoto better than anyone and that was 'fat penn'

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I think Florian (I refuse to call him KenFlo, because that's gay'er than Spooner) will beat him.

If he does, I demand rob remove him from this list.

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

Really? I love Florian but I think Penn's going to yam him. Would LOVE to see Florian win that fight tho.