The General Wrestling Thread

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Bischoff is lost. Instead of tossing out an insignificant 7-week sample size from the company that could lose 50% of their audience and still be kicking his ass, why doesnt he flaunt those disturbing numbers TNA has sported since he took over with his geriatric "stars"?

Besides, I had no idea the WWE was undergomg some sort of youth movement the last two months. Sheamus has been getting pushed for much longer than that, and we've seen start/stop pushes for Miz, Bourne, Kingston, McIntyre, and a few others. Otherwise, it's still Cena, Orton, Mysterio, Kane, Undertaker, Punk, et al on top.

The wrestling business can not sustain inself unless you constantly are working towards building new stars. To argue otherwise is just really fucking ignorant, but we're dealing with a guy who ran the company with the best resources in the history of the wrestling business, and still managed to run it into the ground in roughly 5 years.

I fully believe that the WWE would be perfectly content with getting their 3-somethings every week, having 95% of the market share of the business, with things going exactly the way they are for the rest of its life. They promote a brand, the WWE brand, not the talent so much anymore.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I fully believe that the WWE would be perfectly content with getting their 3-somethings every week, having 95% of the market share of the business, with things going exactly the way they are for the rest of its life. They promote a brand, the WWE brand, not the talent so much anymore.

The only thing they should be unhappy with is the rapidly dropping domestic PPV numbers. But to me, that's just cyclical and wrestling as a whole is in a clear downcycle.

The TV ratings mean virtually nothing, because they don't get any advo money anymore. And you are spot on with the prmotion of the brand > induvidual talent.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

The only thing they should be unhappy with is the rapidly dropping domestic PPV numbers. But to me, that's just cyclical and wrestling as a whole is in a clear downcycle.

The TV ratings mean virtually nothing, because they don't get any advo money anymore. And you are spot on with the prmotion of the brand > induvidual talent.

It is incredibly reminiscent of the early 90's.

The thing is this though...there needs to be a social-musical revolution...but this country is devoid of that right now. I mean, like Nirvana and the Seattle scene coming in and kicking the music industry in the balls, Paul Heyman, seeing this social trend, and ECW kicked the wrestling world in the balls. WCW raised their game with the nWo angle, and you got a new big boom period in wrestling, much like there was a big musical upturn as well as a bit of a social revolution. Same thing needs to happen...this country for most of the 1900's and into the 2000's saw social change and musical revolution go hand in hand, and most recently, in wrestling (a form of entertainment), saw a change in its foreseeable forecast.

The constant in wrestling...the WWE won't be the force to change the business...they never will. They will simply adapt to their surroundings.

So, if a wrestling renaissance is to happen in regards to quality, we are relying on TNA for the foreseeable future and that is sad.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Heyman saw the impact of MMA long before anyone else in the WWE did (where Vince is still in denial) and wanted to take the ECW brand in that direction before it became obvious that he had no real power and he quit. Kurt Angle, Santino Marella, Kozlov, and CM Punk were going to be pushed as bad ass shooters (we saw this early with Angle & Punk), and Heyman was going to use the older hardcore guys to put them over and change the direction.

I don't know if it would have worked, but shit, at least it was something different. It worked short term in TNA with the Angle/Joe feud, that's for sure.

 

[IamMedellin]

reminds me of a Heyman quote, regarding his proposed ending to the ECW December to Dismember EC match

My opinion was to start the chamber off with the Big Show saying: "I'm a seven foot tall, 500lb giant, I'm gonna mow through every one of you."


And the first to take him on would be Punk. Playing to the fact that UFC is so hot and in the public consciousness, Punk chokes out Big Show in the first round of the Elimination Chamber, four-and-a-half minutes in, and now the champion is out.


You know for a fact, before any two contenders lock up, I'm getting a new champion at the end of this match.


Then, the first guy to come out after Big Show v Punk, would be Van Dam. You let Van Dam and Punk fight it out, and then you start feeding in the heels.


Vince hated this. He especially hated the fact that Big Show liked it.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Heyman saw the impact of MMA long before anyone else in the WWE did (where Vince is still in denial) and wanted to take the ECW brand in that direction before it became obvious that he had no real power and he quit. Kurt Angle, Santino Marella, Kozlov, and CM Punk were going to be pushed as bad ass shooters (we saw this early with Angle & Punk), and Heyman was going to use the older hardcore guys to put them over and change the direction.

I don't know if it would have worked, but shit, at least it was something different. It worked short term in TNA with the Angle/Joe feud, that's for sure.

The MMA shoot guys would have worked, but not sure it works as a major direction of the business. Guys like Kurt Angle work, because they are different than the norm, but...an entire fed full of Kurt Angle's...ehhhh.

It actually is kind of funny to see the WWE trying to make Swagger into Angle.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

There is a facinating chapter in "Hardcore History" about the debacle that was December To Dismember.

In addition to Punk eliminating Big Show, Heyman wanted to turn Lashley heel at the end of the match, and build towards Lashley defending the ECW Title vs either Punk or Van Dam, whoever was more over, at WrestleMania. Everyone loved it, except McMahon.

McMahon made the call to keep Lashley a face and give him the mega push, and replace Sabu in the match with Hardcore Holly, to give Lahsley one extra heel to overcome. He also made the call to eliminate Punk & Van Dam early, to get rid of the faces, and establish to Lashley as the top face as he would have to overcome heels Big Show, Holly, & Test to win...the same boring ass WWE "superman" formula they always do. Heyman told him all of this would backfire and fail, and obviously it did.

After the show, McMahon asked Heyman how he thought it all turned out, and Heyman told him he thought it sucked...the fans rejected the match as soon as Punk & Van Dam were eliminated, and Lashley didnt get over. McMahon responded "It was a great show with a great finish!", and told Heyman he needed to get with the program and get behind Lashley.

The next day at TV, McMahon saw the fan responses to the awful PPV and blamed Heyman, saying he riled up the workers with his shitty ideas, so they couldnt focus on having a good match (LMAO). Unreal.

At the same TV, Heyman laid out a plan to open the show with a mid card match, and then announce three interviews would be coming up later - Lashley, Punk, & Van Dam. McMahon said no, because he was afraid Punk would get the most cheers. Heyman said, "What's so bad about that? That means he's over..." and McMahon blew a fuse and said it needed to be all about Lashley, and no one else. McMahon rewrote the show and had Holly beat Punk clean in the middle. Fans hated it, and not in a good way. Heyman had enough and quit that night.

Like I always say, Vince McMahon is a billionaire who has left millions of dollars on the table. He could be twice as successful if he wasnt so stubborn and clueless. He basically lucked into Hogan & Austin, and got lucky when Mr.T agreed to do WrestleMania I. Otherwise, he likely would have failed.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

The MMA shoot guys would have worked, but not sure it works as a major direction of the business. Guys like Kurt Angle work, because they are different than the norm, but...an entire fed full of Kurt Angle's...ehhhh.

It actually is kind of funny to see the WWE trying to make Swagger into Angle.

Well, it was more about taking wrestling back into a more serious direction. I dont think he would have done all worked shoots or anything like that.

 

[dave]

My biggest issue with McMahon was how he handled Flair-Hogan when Flair went to the WWF for the first time.
It was such a shame.
That should have been huge ... and it was a joke when WCW tried to make it huge a few years later.

 

[JayDizzle]

Alex Riley got jobbed to Kaval (AKA Low Ki) tonight as Mr. Perfect's kid took a dive as well.

Henning Jr. looks better as a heel as Low Ki looks like he's going to job in the next few weeks.

...and now all the eliminated Rookies from Season 2 are stomping Ki out... all the Pros are in for the save and we yet again see a garbage ending...

ADDENDUM: The ending was messed up by everyone involved as there was no clear-cut person actually able to stop Ki from getting an assbeating.

On top of this, some of the eliminated Rookies would beat on each other and then later on show up in the ring side-by-side like nothing happened.

 

[Bigpapa42]

My biggest issue with McMahon was how he handled Flair-Hogan when Flair went to the WWF for the first time.
It was such a shame.
That should have been huge ... and it was a joke when WCW tried to make it huge a few years later.

I'm honestly surprised that Flair got treated as well as he did, to be honest. McMahon has a pretty brutal history with guys who he didn't make stars... though maybe that was moreso later. That said, I've really need read a good explanation of why they didn't do the no-brainer Flair vs Hogan match when they could...

I've heard stories about what happened with December 2 Dismember, W2B, but not quite that whole story. Interesting.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

NXT is doing all Divas next season. Awful.

It's official, I now watch ZERO WWE programming as of next week.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I've heard stories about what happened with December 2 Dismember, W2B, but not quite that whole story. Interesting.

Pick up "Hardcore History". You can get it cheap on ebay or on a bargain rack. It's a tremendous book.

 

[dave]

I'm honestly surprised that Flair got treated as well as he did, to be honest. McMahon has a pretty brutal history with guys who he didn't make stars... though maybe that was moreso later. That said, I've really need read a good explanation of why they didn't do the no-brainer Flair vs Hogan match when they could...

I've heard stories about what happened with December 2 Dismember, W2B, but not quite that whole story. Interesting.

McMahon was very good to Flair, I just don't like how he handled Flair-Hogan.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

McMahon was very good to Flair, I just don't like how he handled Flair-Hogan.

McMahon gambled and figured that doing Hogan/Flair on the house show circuit would be more profitable than doing a buildup for one match at WrestleMania. I can see the logic, but what killed it was the "psuedo" Flair they presented. It was like Flair doing a parody of himself. Gone was the suit wearing, womanizing, fast talking, stylin' & profilin' Flair, replaced by a completely toned down version. Something was just "off", and IMO, Flair never fully recovered the rest of his career.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Flair-Macho was a better storyline than anything they could have given us with the dream match.

 

[dave]

McMahon gambled and figured that doing Hogan/Flair on the house show circuit would be more profitable than doing a buildup for one match at WrestleMania. I can see the logic, but what killed it was the "psuedo" Flair they presented. It was like Flair doing a parody of himself. Gone was the suit wearing, womanizing, fast talking, stylin' & profilin' Flair, replaced by a completely toned down version. Something was just "off", and IMO, Flair never fully recovered the rest of his career.

You think?
I thought they portrayed Flair pretty good in his first run.
Acknowledged him as a champion, didn't change his wardrobe (other than the suits) or name, immediately put him at the top of the card.
Other than the Hogan thing, I thought they treated Flair with a remarkable amount of respect for a former NWA/WCW guy.
I loved how Dusty Rhodes turned tables on them and made the polka dot thing work. You have to give Dusty credit for making that work.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

You think?
I thought they portrayed Flair pretty good in his first run.
Acknowledged him as a champion, didn't change his wardrobe (other than the suits) or name, immediately put him at the top of the card.
Other than the Hogan thing, I thought they treated Flair with a remarkable amount of respect for a former NWA/WCW guy.
I loved how Dusty Rhodes turned tables on them and made the polka dot thing work. You have to give Dusty credit for making that work.

I think it was the begging of screaming maniac red faced Flair, and the end of smooth, limo riding, shit talking Flair.

Dusty's charisma was impossible to hide. When the polka dots failed to kill him, they tried giving him the fat/ugly love interest, and that didnt work either..."Sweeeet Sapphhhiaaaaah!". Fucker made that work, too. Even when he does RAW once per year now, he's probably the best promo on the show. He just has the unteachable charisma that 1% of guys have.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

You can't give Dusty a bad enough character that he wouldn't get over with it. He has a talent that few else have in the business.

You could strap him up with the Gooker or Abe Knuckleball Schwartz and he'd make it work.

 

[JayDizzle]

NXT is doing all Divas next season. Awful.

It's official, I now watch ZERO WWE programming as of next week.

I'll tune into the first episode to see that King Kong bitch they got on the roster.

She's 6'9".

"Aloisia" I think her name is? She's got Vickie Guerrero as her Pro... I'd rather have Hector or Chavo.