The General Wrestling Thread

[JayDizzle]

Foley's got...

Himself/Kofi/Kane/Danielson/Orton

So we got Miz's kryptonite, the Tag Champs (a fucking Coup), Orton... who while sucky, has made his bones at Survivor Series.

...and OF COURSE Foley isn't gonna fight.

Fucking Ryback.

NO BUYS? Probably.

 

[JimLeavy59]

Crowd is dead lol.

 

[JayDizzle]

$5 says Heyman dumps Punk soon for Ryback.

 

[krulmichael]

Man that Goldberg chant was the loudest chant of the night. Best thing about this Raw is that it's finally over. Wow that was terrible.

 

[SuperKevin]

Way to ruin that matchup for me WWE.

 

[JimLeavy59]

And those "Feed me more" chants were obviously piped in.

 

[s@ppisgod]

Clearly piped in "feed me more" chants followed by complete silence, and ending with crystal clear "Goldberg" chants from the crowd. Vince has got to be pissed.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Also, WWE PPV hit the bottom in 1996, started to climb late 1997, peaked in 1999, and then tumbled badly in 2002. PPV business didn't pick back up until 2006.

Austin's push started in late 1997, he peaked in popularity in 1999, and he retired after WrestleMania in 2002.

LOL. You can't make this stuff up.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Now you are making up strawman arguments. I never said he did it all by himself, but he was clearly the biggest star. That is my point. He was the biggest star. And frankly, you can't beat that point with facts. You just can't.

And Austin was gone for 8 months. Let's not act like he was gone for years. And he still had a TV presence as part of a major storyline. So i'm supposed to believe that WWE maintaining momentum (that Austin created!) for eight fucking months somehow discredits Austin? gtfo with that low level shit. And when he came back, he was right back in the driver's seat, and didn't miss a beat.

And your point about WWE havnig more Austin merch to that point than anybody else is ridiculously stupid. Even if it's true, which I dont know that it is because i dont even know what that means, who cares? He generated more revenue through merch than anybody ever. End of story.

You can keep calling me dumb if you like, but the numbers don't lie. He drew the most money, and the WWE was in the fucking shitter before his push. He was the king on PPV, on TV, and in the arenas. He was the biggest star and was the catalyst for the biggest boom.

Keep pretending wrestling was "getting the ball rolling" before Austin. WCW was doing OK, and WWE was in its darkest days and DYING. Why was WWE practically out of business with all of these hot stars you keep crediting? Austin's big push comes along, and buries everything WCW ever did to that point, crushed them on TV and never looked back (aside from one week where Goldberg popped a rating). And then look at the heights the ratings reached during the Austin peak. Not to mention PPV, where Austin is the undisputed king, something you wont even argue. Also, look at the ratings DIP when Austin is hurt, lol.

Larry, what exactly is your argument? Because if its that Austin was not the biggest star, you can't win that one. Good job, good effort, but its unwinnable.

It was...In 95, ratings were in the 2's for both companies. By the end of 1997, WCW was in the high 4s and WWF was in the high 3's rating wise...that graph does nothing but PROVE my point. Thanks for that. You can say "pretending" all you want, but the business was already bouncing back from its low point. LOL @ "WCW was doing ok"...it was doing their biggest and best business! WWF was dying, but was slowly bouncing back due to an increased interest in wrestling as a whole. SummerSlam and Survivor Series in 1997 already started to show a bounce back in buyrates. WCW did their biggest PPV ever. Stop talking out your ass.

Unfortunately, if you look at the detail...WWF didn't overtake Nitro for good until the fall...Rock and Mick Foley were trading the title at the top. Austin was with Undertaker. But good work. The RAW after WrestleMania XIV...Nitro actually beat it. In subsequent weeks, wrestling gained an extra full point in ratings...both WCW and WWF were popping high ratings. They would trade weeks and hours throughout the summer and fall. It wasn't until Mick Foley won the title at the start of 1999 that RAW would put Nitro away for good. They didn't lose another hour.

As for Austin being a PPV King...I already said The Rock has probably overtaken him as a PPV King at this point. As for your "ratings dip" comment...I'm at least glad to know you don't know how to read a graph.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Again, you are arguing with a strawman.

I am not giving Austin ALL of the credit. I am saying Austin was the biggest star & biggest draw.

Austin vs Rock at WM - 1,040,000 buys

Hogan vs Rock at WM - 800,000 buys

And lol @ bringing up Rock/Cena a decade later in a different era with a different drawing dynamic. Please stop.

Hogan v. Rock was already a different drawing dynamic...business changed after WCW/WWF merger, including that X-7 buyrate pop which came on the heels of the biggest thing to happen in wrestling ever.

You really are getting a solid beat down in this argument.

I suggest you tap.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

It was...In 95, ratings were in the 2's for both companies. By the end of 1997, WCW was in the high 4s and WWF was in the high 3's rating wise...that graph does nothing but PROVE my point. Thanks for that. You can say "pretending" all you want, but the business was already bouncing back from its low point. LOL @ "WCW was doing ok"...it was doing their biggest and best business! WWF was dying, but was slowly bouncing back due to an increased interest in wrestling as a whole. SummerSlam and Survivor Series in 1997 already started to show a bounce back in buyrates. WCW did their biggest PPV ever. Stop talking out your ass.

Unfortunately, if you look at the detail...WWF didn't overtake Nitro for good until the fall...Rock and Mick Foley were trading the title at the top. Austin was with Undertaker. But good work. The RAW after WrestleMania XIV...Nitro actually beat it. In subsequent weeks, wrestling gained an extra full point in ratings...both WCW and WWF were popping high ratings. They would trade weeks and hours throughout the summer and fall. It wasn't until Mick Foley won the title at the start of 1999 that RAW would put Nitro away for good. They didn't lose another hour.

As for Austin being a PPV King...I already said The Rock has probably overtaken him as a PPV King at this point. As for your "ratings dip" comment...I'm at least glad to know you don't know how to read a graph.

Now we are crediting Mick Foley for beating WCW. My god, you have gone crazy trying to defend whatever awful point you are trying to defend.

RE: I can't read a graph- Austin got hurt in the fall of '99. Survivor Series was the injury angle. Please note on the graph where ratings dip between Sept & Dec '99. Please note that they also dip to the lowest levels in six months in March. Austin came back in June and WOW WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT, the rating shot back up, lol. So yeah, they clearly dipped when he wasn't wrestling or on TV every week.

Just so we are clear here...are you disputing that Austin was not the biggest star & biggest draw of the era? If so, you are lost and have no clue. If not, WHAT THE FUCK ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT?

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Now we are crediting Mick Foley for beating WCW. My god, you have gone crazy trying to defend whatever awful point you are trying to defend.

RE: I can't read a graph- Austin got hurt in the fall of '99. Survivor Series was the injury angle. Please note on the graph where ratings dip between Sept & Dec '99. Please note that they also dip to the lowest levels in six months in March. Austin came back in June and WOW WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT, the rating shot back up, lol. So yeah, they clearly dipped when he wasn't wrestling or on TV every week.

Just so we are clear here...are you disputing that Austin was not the biggest star & biggest draw of the era? If so, you are lost and have no clue. If not, WHAT THE FUCK ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT?

"Star" is a non-quantifiable term. That depends on who you ask. Ask the WCW fans that fell off the earth after the merger and they'd tell you the nWo or Goldberg. Ask Vince, and he'll tell you Austin. Ask a WWE fan...and they'll tell you Austin or The Rock.

"Draw" goes back to my original point that "draws" don't exist or are miscredited since wrestling has gone national...the guys at the top of national wrestling are credited and discredited with the ebb and flow of the business. As you've clearly demonstrated in this discussion...Austin is given the title of biggest draw of the biggest boom period in wrestling simply because it was the biggest boom in wrestling history...the same era that had more "stars" than any era in the history of the business where said stars were concentrated into two national brands. On the flip side guys like Shawn Michaels and Diesel are credited with being awful "draws" during an era of business where the national interest in wrestling was extremely low. Much like today, a guy like John Cena is credited as a draw and top star, yet, wrestling is at an all-time low in regards to eyes on the product.

Wrestling on the national level has changed what a draw is...simple as that. It isn't really quantifiable.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

AS for not reading the graph...

Dude, you've been a wrestling fan for how long? You should know by now, the fall is the WWE's token "dip" in ratings and builds up again in the new year. November of 98 had ratings of 4.8, 5, 5.5, 4.9, 4.5, 5...November of 99 had ratings of 5.6, 5.9, 5.4, 6.3, 6.5 (with and without Austin)...March of 00 had ratings of 6.4, 6.3, 6.2, 6.6...their ratings at the same time in March 99 had ratings of 6.4, 5.8, 6.4, 6.5 (again, with and without Austin).

Just stop.

 

[SuperKevin]

Reading all this is worse than reading JimLeavy's Ryback posts

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Then I suppose this is the end of the road. If you can't see the obvious pattern of business from the point of Austin's push until the point he wrestled his final match, after i've pointed it out a half dozen times over the last four hours, then what can I do?

You are basically chalking up all of the money Austin drew to this idea that he just happened to be the guy on top during a hot period, while failing to recognize that he was more responsible for that period being so hot than any of his peers.

You can see the TV ratings rise as his push increases, you can see RAW pass Nitro after WrestleMania, and you can see that Nitro only won about 4 weeks total after that point. You can see RAW peak when Austin is at his hottest in '99, which coincidentally is when PPV as a whole peaked. Later, you can see rating slip a bit when Austin is off TV, and bounce back up when he comes back. Then, you can see the numbers begin to tumble as they tease the heel turn. And then PPV bottoms out to 6 year lows right after Austin retires in 2002.

If everybody else was just as responsible for the Attitude Era success, then why is everything measurable lower both before Austin's push, and after he quit, as opposed to when he was on top? Why couldn't these guys carry the company before the push, and why didn't things sustain after Austin left? All of the key players were there before and after. It's just coincidence that it rose as his push grew, peaked as he peaked, and slipped when he was forced to quit? You really expect people to buy that?

It's pretty crazy to me that you can't see that he was the biggest draw, but you clearly aren't coming off this stance, so I guess we are done here.

 

[s@ppisgod]

Reading all this is worse than reading JimLeavy's Ryback posts

McMahon wants me to buy Larry as a legit top heel, but I just can't buy him over W2B clean.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Punk/Miz/Rhodes Scholars/Alberto Del Rio

versus

Mick Foley/Kofi Kingston/Team Hell No/Randy Orton

Sounds fucking awful.

 

[SuperKevin]

Punk/Miz/Rhodes Scholars/Alberto Del Rio

versus

Mick Foley/Kofi Kingston/Team Hell No/Randy Orton

Sounds fucking awful.

Foley isnt wrestling. Ryback is

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Then I suppose this is the end of the road. If you can't see the obvious pattern of business from the point of Austin's push until the point he wrestled his final match, after i've pointed it out a half dozen times over the last four hours, then what can I do?

You are basically chalking up all of the money Austin drew to this idea that he just happened to be the guy on top during a hot period, while failing to recognize that he was more responsible for that period being so hot than any of his peers.

You can see the TV ratings rise as his push increases, you can see RAW pass Nitro after WrestleMania, and you can see that Nitro only won about 4 weeks total after that point. You can see RAW peak when Austin is at his hottest in '99, which coincidentally is when PPV as a whole peaked. Later, you can see rating slip a bit when Austin is off TV, and bounce back up when he comes back. Then, you can see the numbers begin to tumble as they tease the heel turn. And then PPV bottoms out to 6 year lows right after Austin retires in 2002.

If everybody else was just as responsible for the Attitude Era success, then why is everything measurable lower both before Austin's push, and after he quit, as opposed to when he was on top? Why couldn't these guys carry the company before the push, and why didn't things sustain after Austin left? All of the key players were there before and after. It's just coincidence that it rose as his push grew, peaked as he peaked, and slipped when he was forced to quit? You really expect people to buy that?

It's pretty crazy to me that you can't see that he was the biggest draw, but you clearly aren't coming off this stance, so I guess we are done here.

You haven't read a single thing I wrote...as I've refuted everything you've posted here several times in this conversation...

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Foley isnt wrestling. Ryback is

Just fast forwarded through it...didn't see this guy come out...even worse.