The General Wrestling Thread

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I never said Punk wasn't a draw. I said he wasn't at the same level as Cena. Similar to how Savage never matched Hogan.

Where I think Okada differs, is I think he has a real chance to surpass Tanahashi. Doesn't mean it will happen.

And I happen to think Bryan has a higher ceiling than Punk.

I don't know, I just don't see how being positioned as the top guy in the top program with the top heels is a step backwards. In my opinion, this is the best job they've done elevating someone in a long time. You want to look at steps backwards, look at Ziggler.

He was positioned in the top program with the top guy in the company already...putting him back in chase mode before you give him a chance to see if he's a legit draw as the top face by being the champ on a few pay per views would have been wise before you put him back in chase mode.

This method of booking just has never really worked...and they've had top guys involved before...its not something we haven't seen before (a few times with Triple H, funny enough). We've seen it with Punk, we've seen it with Jericho, we've seen it with The Undertaker and quite a few others. You know...maybe Punk never became John Cena's peer as a draw because when he was white fucking hot they took the rocket pack off of him. The same can be said for Jericho or 'Taker. Maybe Danielson never usurps Punk as a draw which means he never usurps Cena. These guys all ended up being very strong draws...but they weren't "top draws" because they all had shitty re-chase programs after they already "made it".

Okada is now a proven draw and becoming really strong, because when they gave him the ball, they let him run with it. They didn't just drop him back into chase mode.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

He was positioned in the top program with the top guy in the company already...putting him back in chase mode before you give him a chance to see if he's a legit draw as the top face by being the champ on a few pay per views would have been wise before you put him back in chase mode.

I would argue that there is more money in him chasing than being chased, for a multitude of reasons. One being it's a much better story. Two being he's a natural underdog. Three being that they can build to a big title match where people will be dying for him to get his comeuppance. Four being the McMahons are essentially headlining WrestleMania this year as the direction is building the show around McMahon Family Madness.

What is the better story, Bryan trying to overcome the odds and win the title, or Bryan fending off Orton? It's not even close.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Okada is now a proven draw and becoming really strong, because when they gave him the ball, they let him run with it. They didn't just drop him back into chase mode.

That isn't true. He lost the title back, had to fight through G1 last year to earn a title shot, and even lost the rematch before he won it back for good. He had a long chase. It's actually VERY similar to what is happening with Bryan.

Anyway, we are going in circles. I'm surprised you don't like this direction.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I would argue that there is more money in him chasing than being chased, for a multitude of reasons. One being it's a much better story. Two being he's a natural underdog. Three being that they can build to a big title match where people will be dying for him to get his comeuppance. Four being the McMahons are essentially headlining WrestleMania this year as the direction is building the show around McMahon Family Madness.

What is the better story, Bryan trying to overcome the odds and win the title, or Bryan fending off Orton? It's not even close.

Firstly...the money is in the chase...but he's already chased...and overcame and there is your payoff...after the payoff, the money is in that character defending. If you can provide an adequate example where there payoff was a hit, only to immediately be dropped back down into chase mode again to make more money, I'd be curious to see it.

Numbers two and three are really irrelevant...he was already the underdog and overcame...doing the same thing again is silly. You can still do number three down the road after you revel in the payoff.

As for the McMahons being a headline on WrestleMania...when you might have Rock back, Lesnar, Cena will be back...at best, McMahons are playing fourth fiddle at WrestleMania. The McMahons are your equivalent of your version of Sting.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

That isn't true. He lost the title back, had to fight through G1 last year to earn a title shot, and even lost the rematch before he won it back for good. He had a long chase. It's actually VERY similar to what is happening with Bryan.

Anyway, we are going in circles. I'm surprised you don't like this direction.

Your memory has been shotty tonight, bruh.

I know you didn't miss his four month title run before Tanahashi won the title back. Its not similar to what is happening with Bryan at all. Okada was given a chance to establish himself in his first run...and he did! They then put him back into chase mode four months later. Not 5 minutes later.

The equivalent would have been Bryan winning, then headlining a few pay per views, losing the title at Survivor Series, then coming back and winning the Royal Rumble, putting him back into the chase position.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Firstly...the money is in the chase...but he's already chased...and overcame and there is your payoff...after the payoff, the money is in that character defending. If you can provide an adequate example where there payoff was a hit, only to immediately be dropped back down into chase mode again to make more money, I'd be curious to see it.

Ironically, you provided the most recent example. Okada.

As for the McMahons being a headline on WrestleMania...when you might have Rock back, Lesnar, Cena will be back...at best, McMahons are playing fourth fiddle at WrestleMania. The McMahons are your equivalent of your version of Sting.

Unfortunately, the Mania direction is McMahon Family Feud. Hey, it wasnt my decision.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Your memory has been shotty tonight, bruh.

I know you didn't miss his four month title run before Tanahashi won the title back. Its not similar to what is happening with Bryan at all. Okada was given a chance to establish himself in his first run...and he did! They then put him back into chase mode four months later. Not 5 minutes later.

The point is, Okada lost it back, and unlike Bryan who is the top babyface in the top program, Okada actually went back to the fuckin' MID CARD and worked ALL THE WAY back up!

At least Bryan is still in the main event program. Okada went into witness protection, did a bunch of jobs (Suzuki, etc even though they all had a purpose), won G1, LOST in his title challenge, had to earn another one, and THEN won it back.

They made him chase forever, which is what you are seemingly complaining about for some reason. It's booking 101. Bryan never had a true chase, he was thrust into a match out of nowhere.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Ironically, you provided the most recent example. Okada.





Unfortunately, the Mania direction is McMahon Family Feud. Hey, it wasnt my decision.

It isn't an example supporting the method of booking they are doing with Bryan...its the example they should have aspired to. It is NOT what they are doing with Bryan at all.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

It isn't an example supporting the method of booking they are doing with Bryan...its the example they should have aspired to. It is NOT what they are doing with Bryan at all.

LOL, you need to make up your mind.

First you say making them go backwards & chase is bad, now you are saying they should be aspiring to it.

Okada won the title, lost it back quickly, and was made to chase for a year. He even lost his first challenge! This is exactly what you've been knocking all thread long, now you are saying it's ideal. So which is it?

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

The point is, Okada lost it back, and unlike Bryan who is the top babyface in the top program, Okada actually went back to the fuckin' MID CARD and worked ALL THE WAY back up!

At least Bryan is still in the main event program. Okada went into witness protection, did a bunch of jobs (Suzuki, etc even though they all had a purpose), won G1, LOST in his title challenge, had to earn another one, and THEN won it back.

They made him chase forever, which is what you are seemingly complaining about for some reason. It's booking 101. Bryan never had a true chase, he was thrust into a match out of nowhere.

Before Okada lost it back, he was given a chance to establish himself as a top guy as the champion...it was four months later before they had him drop the title and it was a month and a half later before they sent him through G1 and put the rocket pack back on him.

Before Okada chased again, he was the top guy for four months.

As for the bold...that's not true. The "Rocky" style chase is a classic style of chase.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Before Okada lost it back, he was given a chance to establish himself as a top guy as the champion...it was four months later before they had him drop the title and it was a month and a half later before they sent him through G1 and put the rocket pack back on him.

Before Okada chased again, he was the top guy for four months.

As for the bold...that's not true. The "Rocky" style chase is a classic style of chase.

So your issue is 4 months (and what amounted to one or two title defenses, iirc) vs 5 minutes? OK, but what difference does it make if the end goal is to get the guy over? We all agree (I think) that the Cena win got Bryan over on a new level, much like the Tanahashi win did for Okada. They just took the title off Bryan quicker and started his chase sooner.

The similarities are actually striking. Both men received out of nowhere title shots, shocked the world, lost it back quickly, then were sent into the chase, with the fans DYING for them to win it back. This story clearly leads to Bryan winning it back, in what will be an epic moment. So what is the gripe? He's more over than ever, he's done acting like a goof, and he's going to win the thing back and be a bigger star for it. What are we debating, here?

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

LOL, you need to make up your mind.

First you say making them go backwards & chase is bad, now you are saying they should be aspiring to it.

Okada won the title, lost it back quickly, and was made to chase for a year. He even lost his first challenge! This is exactly what you've been knocking all thread long, now you are saying it's ideal. So which is it?

Are you paying attention to the conversation?

Okada didn't "lose it back quickly", wtf are you talking about?...he had a four month title run with two successful defenses. Where is this not connecting here for you? He established himself as a top guy with some big wins as the champ. Where did Bryan do that? He lost the title five minutes after winning it.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Are you paying attention to the conversation?

Okada didn't "lose it back quickly", wtf are you talking about?...he had a four month title run with two successful defenses. Where is this not connecting here for you? He established himself as a top guy with some big wins as the champ. Where did Bryan do that? He lost the title five minutes after winning it.

Bryan doesn't need to have successful title defenses to establish himself, he was established the second he pinned Cena clean in the middle in an epic match.

Would it really have made a difference if he won two matches at the next two PPV's vs Orton & Ambrose or something? No. I'd argue it would hurt the story. The story here is he got screwed, and his big moment that he worked for his whole life for was ruined. It would have lost that effect if they did it two months from now.

You are misreading this one, buddy. WWE nailed it.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

So your issue is 4 months (and what amounted to one or two title defenses, iirc) vs 5 minutes? OK, but what difference does it make if the end goal is to get the guy over? We all agree (I think) that the Cena win got Bryan over on a new level, much like the Tanahashi win did for Okada. They just took the title off Bryan quicker and started his chase sooner.

The similarities are actually striking. Both men received out of nowhere title shots, shocked the world, lost it back quickly, then were sent into the chase, with the fans DYING for them to win it back. This story clearly leads to Bryan winning it back, in what will be an epic moment. So what is the gripe? He's more over than ever, he's done acting like a goof, and he's going to win the thing back and be a bigger star for it. What are we debating, here?

It was two title defenses...the difference is...in those two defenses, Okada established himself as a top guy both in match quality and as a draw.

You continuing to say these two scenarios are similar just tells me you aren't really cognizant at the moment. They are NOTHING alike. And then continuing to ask what we are debating is silly?

Putting Bryan back in chase mode only to eventually win the title back will not get him more over than he already was when he beat Cena. Period. Bryan was already a made man and huge star after beating Cena. After that, its time to establish him...you do that by having some successful defenses. The WWE's mindset is clear...they want to put him back into chase (taking one step back) in hopes that this program with the McMahons creates two steps forward...IMO, its not. Its at best, one step back to take one step forward. After he overcomes the McMahons...we're back at the same place Bryan was when he beat Cena...he's the top babyface and the champion...that is the best case scenario...worst case...he's hot, and you just killed momentum if this thing gets over like Punk/HHH/Nash/Del Rio...Punk was so good, he eventually overcame that terrible mismanagement. Is Bryan if this thing flops? We'll see.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Bryan doesn't need to have successful title defenses to establish himself, he was established the second he pinned Cena clean in the middle in an epic match.

Would it really have made a difference if he won two matches at the next two PPV's vs Orton & Ambrose or something? No. I'd argue it would hurt the story. The story here is he got screwed, and his big moment that he worked for his whole life for was ruined. It would have lost that effect if they did it two months from now.

You are misreading this one, buddy. WWE nailed it.

We shall see.

With Bryan needing successful title defenses to establish himself...I disagree.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Putting Bryan back in chase mode only to eventually win the title back will not get him more over than he already was when he beat Cena. Period. Bryan was already a made man and huge star after beating Cena. After that, its time to establish him...you do that by having some successful defenses. The WWE's mindset is clear...they want to put him back into chase (taking one step back) in hopes that this program with the McMahons creates two steps forward...IMO, its not. Its at best, one step back to take one step forward. After he overcomes the McMahons...we're back at the same place Bryan was when he beat Cena...he's the top babyface and the champion...that is the best case scenario...worst case...he's hot, and you just killed momentum if this thing gets over like Punk/HHH/Nash/Del Rio...Punk was so good, he eventually overcame that terrible mismanagement. Is Bryan if this thing flops? We'll see.

I basically disagree with everything in this paragraph. All of it.

Yeah, we are just going in circles, man.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I basically disagree with everything in this paragraph. All of it.

Yeah, we are just going in circles, man.

Like I said, provide an example where putting a guy immediately back into chase mode has worked.

It hasn't.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Like I said, provide an example where putting a guy immediately back into chase mode has worked.

It hasn't.

Circles.

The babyface chase is a wrestling staple. Every territory was built on it. And it just worked with Okada, despite you not seeing it somehow.

We're going in circles.

EDIT- And again, Bryan was never chasing to begin with. He's chasing now, for the first time.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Circles.

The babyface chase is a wrestling staple. Every territory was built on it. And it just worked with Okada, despite you not seeing it somehow.

We're going in circles.

EDIT- And again, Bryan was never chasing to begin with. He's chasing now, for the first time.

You couldn't be more wrong with Okada...you must have missed the four months where he proved he could keep up as a draw and via storyline, beat top guys before they dropped him down. Its not even in the same league as what they just did with Bryan. Its just not.

The "Rocky" chase is as classic a chase in wrestling as the babyface chase. I have no idea where in the hell you are coming from saying he didn't already chase...what he did with Cena going from "weak link" gimmick to establishing himself as a guy that could win the title is the definition of a chase. Now, you're just doing it again...immediately after...with characters that are far less over than the guy he already went over on.

You can call it circles...I call it you being way off base.

We will need to revisit this discussion after we see what Night of Champions and Over the Limit do and where this program goes by Survivor Series.

The WWE has been notorious for "promising" booking during this time of the year only for it to turn to shit.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Changing discussion...

Warner mentioned RVD/Kenny King for Worst Feud of the Year...

RVD had some interesting shit to say recently...

So I had mentioned that it’s good to be back in WWE, where the best of the best are. The wrestling caliber here is so much higher than everywhere else I’ve ever been. These fools have taken that to say that I’m putting TNA down. ‘You’re two-faced, you’re a backstabber.’ No, I’m not saying that.

TNA has a lot of really really good wrestlers that could easily come to WWE and go right up to the top and still be some of the best wrestlers here. They also have a lot of wrestlers that can go to NXT and learn a lot and get a lot more rounded before they go somewhere. And if you ask any TNA wrestlers who've been at the top like Jeff Hardy or Kurt Angle or Bubba Dudley or Devon Dudley, I'm pretty sure they would agree with me.

Now better is an opinion, so for you ridiculous fans that want to say, 'Nu uh, I think the wrestling style is better at Ring of Honor. That's where it's a true art.' Yes, I'm not giving a mark's perspective. That's for you. In fact, I'm giving a wrestler's perspective being in the ring wrestling with wrestlers. Unless you don't think I qualify, Google me. You might see I've been around. But for you marks that want to give your opinion, yes, you have the right to your opinion.