The General Wrestling Thread

[JimLeavy59]

Already turned off RAW lol.

 

[EmpireWF]

WOOOO!

Fans in Charlotte will be disappoint.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Methinks you totally don't understand that era of wrestling, and it is understandable considering you didn't watch it...hence, bringing up Dave and Wade's old quips about Austin during the era...mostly, the end of that era.

The Monday Night Wars era of wrestling (not just the "Attitude Era") was a boom in the overall market share of the business. It was a "slow build", to use a wrestling term. It was a snowball effect. It started with the actual inception of RAW v. Nitro...but from there, grew...week to week, PPV to PPV, business was slowly building up. The first big peak was the introduction of the nWo...the next was Sting/Hogan at Starrcade 97 (an event very underrated in the entire history of the business...it popped a monster rating before the big WM buyrate)...then comes WrestleMania XIV...it wasn't some bomb in a birdcage effect like Austin was some man on fire and put the entire business on his back...

I mean, that is what the revisionist history of the WWE would like you to believe, but it just isn't true. The WWF had set the table for their future stars with the "Jim Ross guys"...and they all got the ball rolling right around the same time. It is why you see so much turnover at the top, yet the ratings were still through the roof, even when Austin was out for many months during a huge period for the WWE.

As for there not being no "Attitude Era"...the Attitude Era began before WrestleMania XIV. The emergence of Mr. McMahon had plenty to do with that as well.

As for the decline in business after Austin's heel turn...WCW being purchased by the WWF and the subsequent massive decrease of the market bubble is the main reason behind business going down the shitter post WrestleMania X-7.

Austin was the most popular guy in an era full of popular guys...so he's given credit for basically throwing the entire industry on his back and that just simply isn't true.

I don't need your passive aggressive history lesson.

Larry, I will make this very simple for you.

Who was the headliner during the most successful five year period in wrestling history?

And a second question...

Why was the TOTAL North American attendance for pro wrestling in 1996, the year before Austin was pushed as the top guy, a whopping 2 million, if the era was full of all of these other "popular guys"?...which it was, but none of them drew like Austin. Not a single one. Austin takes off, and all of a sudden you want to credit the collective. C'mon. Of course others got hot. But none on the level of Austin, and Austin was the catalyst for all of it.

This comes from a Austin vs Hogan thread, but it contains some interesting points that pertain here:

If you ask anyone who was in WWE will access to all the numbers, from Vince on down, from both eras, and ask who was the biggest draw, everyone will replay Austin and without hesitation, because he sold more tickets, sold more merch, sold more PPVs. Granted, there are huge differences in eras that mitigate those things, but...Austin beat Hogan in every financial category comparing peaks. Hogan did headline more successful shows because of far greater longevity. At his peak, Austin was bigger. For longevity, Hogan was.

2) Austin started his run when WWE was deep in debt, loans out, they had to remove water coolers from the office and wrestling was never colder. Hogan's run started in 1984, when the pro wrestling industry on a national basis was already at peak levels. U.S. attendance in 1983, year before Hogan's run, was 13 million. U.S. attendance in 1996, year before Austin's run, was well under 2 million.

3) Austin got there with TV deals in place, but when wrestling ratings were rock bottom. Hogan got there when most major cities were doing far bigger ratings for wrestling than any time since. Ratings in most cities fell during the Hogan peak, as did the national cable numbers. Not his fault, just a changing environment. But Austin's numbers increased at a time when ratings across the board were declining for almost every other sport.

4) Austin did work when PPV was more established, but also worked in an environment with 35 PPVs per year (WWE, WCW, TNA & UFC). When Hogan broke into PPV, it was a novelty, WWE had a monopoly and there were only a few shows of the year, and far better promoted

5) Austin got there when merchandise division was more established. That is true.

6) Hogan's peak on NBC did draw more than Austin's peak rating on USA. Well, duh? But Hogan's ratings on cable were 3's and Austin's were double that even though there was far more cable competitition and individual cable network ratings were much smaller. Hogan's peak numbers were bigger, Austin's weekly numbers dwarfed Hogan's, even though Austin appeared on TV every week and Hogan's TV appearances were rare and promoted as special.

7) Hogan did not draw shitloads more people. Hogan's best feuds averaged 8,000 to 10,000 paid aside from Orndorff. Austin at his peak averaged 14,000 paid, and did mostly sellouts. Plus, at Austin's peak, because of the Raw set, he was playing in arenas where capacity was cut back 30% for the biggest show of the week and still, on average, greatly outdrew Hogan at triple the ticket prices. And, the house shows during the Hogan run were far better promoted. The company had specialized local television and did specialized local interviews and did more advertising because house shows were the prime revenue source and considered the most important thing. During the Austin era, house shows were considered a distant No. 3 in priority. No more local market television or localized interviews. Plus, in the Hogan era, everything on television was geared toward buying house show tickets and in the Austin era, the house shows were barely acknowledged on TV that they even existed.

You act as if the boom would have happened with or without Austin, like he just happened to be the guy when it finally happened, and it was really the collective that made it happen. Well, that's bullshit. It didn't happen until Austin got his push, and it ended when they turned him heel! What we thought was the boom pre Austin was BLOWN THE FUCK AWAY by what Austin did for the next five years. Happenstance? Not a chance. It was because of Austin, not because he was part of an ensemble.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

"thanks to Austin laying the groundwork" is exactly why your argument falls short, and is exactly my point...the groundwork was being laid long before Steve Austin was shot to the moo

When did it peak? Who was on top when it did?

You talk about revisionist history, but you are pretending WWE had momentum rolling with these "jim ROss guys", when the fact was, WWE was DYING before the Austin push.

 

[ThomasTomasz]

LOL, you were busted chants

 

[BigBiss]

Im Done, they got 40 mins out of me ... no more

 

[IamMedellin]

People say that, but WCW was still pulling high weekly ratings...and they didn't start to tank until 1999...over a year and a half later. Early in 1997, Nitro was pulling high 3s...the build up to Starrcade and the subsequent fallout popped ratings up to high 4s...they floated their mid-high 4 ratings for another year. It wasn't until the middle of 1999 (April or June IIRC) that they dipped below 4 and never returned. They dipped back into the 2s a year later (lowest since 1995-ish) and they were dead in 6 months.

Starrcade 97 was their peak in ppv, they never hit that buy rate again, Nitro rating's stayed steady for a bit after that before WWE over took them [wwe was pulling in ridiculous ratings at that point] then came Nash getting the book, then u enter Russo, but starrcade 97 was the apex, things stayed steady for a year after but they never surpassed that height, probably couldve with Goldberg but they hot shotted that for a nitro rating

 

[JayDizzle]

So they're gonna feed Ziggler to CenaMania next?

MFer's never gonna cash in the big blue briefcase now.

 

[JayDizzle]

lolCastagnoli.

America's kids are fat.

 

[ThomasTomasz]

Looks like creative ran out of ideas so Truth and Kofi are back together :yawn:

 

[krulmichael]

Looks like creative ran out of ideas so Truth and Kofi are back together :yawn:

Yea I see that "push" for Gabriel lasted a whole two weeks.

 

[EmpireWF]

Who you got? I'm thinking....

Foley
Cena
Ryback
??????

Vs.

Punk
Dolph
?????
?????

 

[JayDizzle]

Looks like creative ran out of ideas so Truth and Kofi are back together :yawn:

Good news is, when they put the U.S. Title on Truth, he won't have to defend it out of the States.

/something something Dude's got Charges something something

 

[ThomasTomasz]

Who you got? I'm thinking....

Foley
Cena
Ryback
??????

Vs.

Punk
Dolph
?????
?????

Now that Cesaro is with Miz, Punk Dolph and Lesnar. Foley probably plays that he will suit up, but will get taken out by heel tactics, and H's comes in to save the day and set up him and Lesnar for WM.

 

[JayDizzle]

Who you got? I'm thinking....

Foley
Cena
Ryback
??????

Vs.

Punk
Dolph
?????
?????

Foley
Ryback
Cena
Sheamus
Orton


Punk
Ziggler
Barrett
Miz
Del Rio

Big Show and Kofi can swap for spots after.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

When did it peak? Who was on top when it did?

You talk about revisionist history, but you are pretending WWE had momentum rolling with these "jim ROss guys", when the fact was, WWE was DYING before the Austin push.

Wrestling's peak ratings wise (when the most eyes were on the product) came in the last quarter of 1998 and the first half of 1999...Rock, Austin, Foley, Undertaker, Hogan and Goldberg were the guys at the top of wrestling.

Wrestling next peak was during the first half of 2000...The Rock and HHH were at the top...Steve Austin wasn't even around until after WrestleMania. WrestleMania 2000 drew the highest buyrate ever until the next year. By 2001 though, WCW's ratings were in the toilet and even the WWE, with a returning Austin, was suffering from ratings that were as low as they were in 3 years. The bubble was deflating before WCW went out of business. X-7 popped a huge buyrate due to WWE and WCW having their merge only a week or two prior.

No revisionist history here, bruh. Giving you the goods with facts...

 

[SuperKevin]

I have a feeling it will be Alberto Del Rio vs Big Show in the big title match on the card so neither will be involved. I expect a Dolph Ziggler cash in as well so count him out too.

 

[JayDizzle]

I have a feeling it will be Alberto Del Rio vs Big Show in the big title match on the card so neither will be involved. I expect a Dolph Ziggler cash in as well so count him out too.

Every PPV Ziggler doesn't cash in is another month wasted by him.

He can get all the TV matches, PPV fights he wants but until he gets a World or WWE Title around his waist, he's wasting his time.

Can't call him a mid-carder but he's more likely to fail like Cena did when he cashed in and lost earlier this year.

He just doesn't have the clout to come back from it.

 

[krulmichael]

They give everyone that damn "Overdrive" finisher don't they? :lol:

 

[JimLeavy59]

During the first 20 minutes of RAW when they panned to the crowd all I saw was kids with their parents and for some reason on this night it killed my interest in WWE programming, Not sure why but it just did maybe that was a slap in the face that I needed to realize that the people running WWE truly could give a fuck less about its adult male fans.