Will Devin Hester be a HOF'er?

[Warner2BruceTD]

I agree with the sentiment that HOFer is HOFer there are no tiers.

However when a guy retires some are bubble players and the performances of his current peers and those immediately after does change perception.
WR position is an easy one to see it. Cris Carter was a first ballot HOFer by most opinions towards the end of his career. But you throw in a gangland of guys who made the century mark and dozen TDs immediately the norm it changes his status. His lack of big plays and mediocre YPC with no memorable games , playoff performances suddenly become issues.

Again, disagree strongly with this mindset.

The bold is all that should matter. When he played, in his era, against his peers, he was a universal HOF player to most. To me it doesn't matter what people like Brandon Marshall or Brandon Lloyd did 10 years later because I know from watching Carter that he was 1,000x better than guys like that regardless of statistics.

 

[nflman2033]

Cris Carter is also highly annoying on TV, thus hurting his candidacy after retirement.

didn't hurt Michael Irvin or Deion Sanders getting in, although I guess they were more obvious choices to get in.

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

I agree with this thinking, but IMO it would be a no-brainer that teams would take Curtis Martin or Tim Brown over Devin Hester.

I think RB is less important and WRs are a dime a dozen on todays game. Im not sure that decision is as easy as it comes off. I think a team that had a legit QB and using him as a 3rd WR would have had a field day with Hester.

What "other side of the ball" are you talking about during that run? He wasn't a receiver yet, and as far as I know, he was never considered an even serviceable DB. What Hester does in the return game is no where near what a hall of fame shut down corner brings. He's not on the field enough.

Your reasoning for voting in Hester over Brown and Martin is like saying you would vote Lenny Harris in the MLB HOF over Jim Thome because Harris is the all time pinch hit leader (by a fairly large margin) and Thome was never the best 1B in MLB.

As a return man he was the Bears most valuable offensive weapon and what he did to field position he was as valuable as any defensive player not named Urlacher.
His impact was far greater than most return men in recent memory.

Why are you guys copping out and saying pinch hitter ?
Im pretty sure Mariano Rivera and Dennis Eckersley are specialists and were better pitchers than Denny Neagle.

yeah but Guy was the best player at his position, which is my point if Guy can't get in being the best Punter, then the guy who is the best Returner, shouldn't get in.

Guy didnt score. Thats my prejudice without justification.:nana:
If I had to justify Hester affected field position as much as a punter did but scored points.

 

[Rush]

Hester getting in over guys like Tim Brown and Curtis Martin would be a shame.

Here is my argument against Hester...

Martin - 100 TDs
Brown - 105 TDs
Hester - 30 TDs

Two injustices doesn't justify a third.

 

[Rush]

I agree with this thinking, but IMO it would be a no-brainer that teams would take Curtis Martin or Tim Brown over Devin Hester.

Like I asked on CCS...what are the specifications. Do they still have the same career stats and output? Guaranteed health? Do you need a WR or RB?

What if you're set at WR or RB, have extra draft picks and could afford to reach on Hester?

Gotta love hypotheticals.

 

[Rush]

Player A - 12 return TD's, 21 total TD's, 10.5 PR avg, 23.8 KR avg, 162 rec, 1747 rec yards, 242 rushing yards, 19 fumbles, 2x league league in All Purpose Yardage, 2-time Pro Bowl, 1-time All Pro

Player B - 16 return TD's, 30 total TD's, 12.7 PR avg, 24.5 KR avg, 185 rec, 2458 rec yards, 80 rushing yards, 26 fumbles, never led the league in all purpose yardage, 3-time Pro Bowl, 3-time All Pro

Sorry, Devin Hester isn't significantly better than a guy like Dante Hall, who would never sniff the HOF. Devin Hester needs to do more to separate himself from people like Hall. I'm not even sure Hall would be considered #2, and Hester doesn't lap him.

You're also comparing Hall's 9 seasons to Hesters 6 1/4 seasons.

Hester will more than lap him by the time he even reaches 9 seasons of experience, should he stay healthy.

That's just one thing to take into account.

 

[bucky]

A few ways to look at this:

Do I think he should get in? Yes.

Do I think he actually gets in? No.

How many Special Teams players are in the HOF? How many are in because of their Special Teams play? The answer to that may change my mind. I say no, for the same reason so few kickers or punters are in the HOF. They are part time players. Hester is playing WR, but he does not have HOF WR credentials.

Is Steve Tasker in the HOF? Isn't he regarded as one of the very best Special Teams players of all time. I think for this reason, I say no to Hester. But I could have my mind changed.

EDIT: Should have read the thread first. Others already beat me to this.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Player A - 12 return TD's, 21 total TD's, 10.5 PR avg, 23.8 KR avg, 162 rec, 1747 rec yards, 242 rushing yards, 19 fumbles, 2x league league in All Purpose Yardage, 2-time Pro Bowl, 1-time All Pro

Player B - 16 return TD's, 30 total TD's, 12.7 PR avg, 24.5 KR avg, 185 rec, 2458 rec yards, 80 rushing yards, 26 fumbles, never led the league in all purpose yardage, 3-time Pro Bowl, 3-time All Pro

Sorry, Devin Hester isn't significantly better than a guy like Dante Hall, who would never sniff the HOF. Devin Hester needs to do more to separate himself from people like Hall. I'm not even sure Hall would be considered #2, and Hester doesn't lap him.

Two injustices doesn't justify a third.

Is Dante Hall a hall of fame player?

 

[Rush]

Is Dante Hall a hall of fame player?

You're comparing the career stats of 2 players that haven't played the same amount of time.

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

Like I asked on CCS.

Shameless plug ?=-) The cross forum postings are eye opening. :stoned:

 

[Rush]

Is Steve Tasker in the HOF? Isn't he regarded as one of the very best Special Teams players of all time. I think for this reason, I say no to Hester. But I could have my mind changed.

While you could make a case for Tasker, voters would be much more open to the idea of touchdowns, career touchdown leader, etc.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

You're also comparing Hall's 9 seasons to Hesters 6 1/4 seasons.

Hester will more than lap him by the time he even reaches 9 seasons of experience, should he stay healthy.

That's just one thing to take into account.

Until he does, the argument is invalid.

I can say Chris Johnson or Matt Forte will "lap" a bunch of retired RB's, until they do, who cares. We don't put players in the hall of fame for what they might do. Hester is not significantly better than Dante Hall right now.

 

[Rush]

Shameless plug ?=-) The cross forum postings are eye opening. :stoned:

Well Senser is trying to discuss it on two seperate sites. Even going as far as quoting your Martin, Brown, Hester question over there.

 

[Rush]

Until he does, the argument is invalid.

I can say Chris Johnson or Matt Forte will "lap" a bunch of retired RB's, until they do, who cares. We don't put players in the hall of fame for what they might do. Hester is not significantly better than Dante Hall right now.

However it's not fair to compare two career totals and act as if Hester isn't significantly better because Hall has played 3 more seasons than him at this very moment.

Since the argument is invalid, I guess we can close this thread, and re-open it in 3 years.

 

[bucky]

agreed but what is the percentage of touches to TDs there? Hester sees the ball a fraction of the amount of time those guys did.

Hester is a WR. He doesn't get the same touches because he's not really very good at it, at least so far. Those other guys that were mentioned by Senser have had a MUCH bigger impact than a mediocre WR, great Special Teams player (Hester).

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

However it's not fair to compare two career totals and act as if Hester isn't significantly better because Hall has played 3 more seasons than him at this very moment.

Since the argument is invalid, I guess we can close this thread, and re-open it in 3 years.

Again, what if Hester doesn't return a single kick for a TD ever again? What if he scores, say, two more? That isn't plausible? Kick returners fall off quickly, and Hester already has a two year stretch in his career where he had ZERO return TD's.

Hester has not lapped the field in a specialized position. I was on the fence when I came into the thread, but now i'm a firm "no". In fact, I don't even think he's close.

 

[Rush]

Again, what if Hester doesn't return a single kick for a TD ever again? What if he scores, say, two more? That isn't plausible? Kick returners fall off quickly, and Hester already has a two year stretch in his career where he had ZERO return TD's.

Hester has not lapped the field in a specialized position. I was on the fence when I came into the thread, but now i'm a firm "no". In fact, I don't even think he's close.

Until he doesn't return a single kick for a TD again, this argument is invalid.

If he falls off, he'll just be the best returner of all-time and be excluded from the hall. If he continues his production, he'll very much be in the HOF. If it were to be counted from this day. It's a firm no so I agree with you there. Good thing he has many seasons to prove his case.

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

You're also comparing Hall's 9 seasons to Hesters 6 1/4 seasons.

Hester will more than lap him by the time he even reaches 9 seasons of experience, should he stay healthy.

That's just one thing to take into account.

How many Special Teams players are in the HOF? How many are in because of their Special Teams play? The answer to that may change my mind. I say no, for the same reason so few kickers or punters are in the HOF. They are part time players. Hester is playing WR, but he does not have HOF WR credentials.

Is Steve Tasker in the HOF? Isn't he regarded as one of the very best Special Teams players of all time. I think for this reason, I say no to Hester. But I could have my mind changed.

Not sure how else to say it but Devin Hester has had more direct impact than any other special teams player ever. Tackling a guy on a kick return isnt impact. He changed complexions of games and was as influential as any other player on the field with only a handful of opportunities a game.

I measure greatness by impact. Hester impact on games is obscene for a returner. That stupid cliche "hes a threat to go all the way everytime he touches the ball" seems made for Hester. Deion , Sayers and Hester are the only guys I can say actually fit that bill in the return game. Even when not scoring they consistently come insanely and dangerously close to breaking the return.
Maybe Im biased + I rarely would tune into the bears yet somehow Ive seen half of Hesters returns live. So my view may be skewed.

 

[killgod]

I don't watch Bears football (I mean cmon, it's the fucking Bears....snore) but has anyone ever done a full breakdown analysis of his returns?

How much is good ST coaching?
Good ST play?
Luck?

How many returns were his natural ability and how many were aided by overall team play?

What about for other great returners?

I'd be interested in reading an in depth analysis of these plays to see much is truly about him.

 

[nflman2033]

I think RB is less important and WRs are a dime a dozen on todays game. Im not sure that decision is as easy as it comes off. I think a team that had a legit QB and using him as a 3rd WR would have had a field day with Hester.




As a return man he was the Bears most valuable offensive weapon and what he did to field position he was as valuable as any defensive player not named Urlacher.
His impact was far greater than most return men in recent memory.

Why are you guys copping out and saying pinch hitter ?
Im pretty sure Mariano Rivera and Dennis Eckersley are specialists and were better pitchers than Denny Neagle.





Guy didnt score. Thats my prejudice without justification.:nana:
If I had to justify Hester affected field position as much as a punter did but scored points.

well again I am not endorsing Guy for the Hall, just merely stating that being the best player at your position isn't a good enough argument.

I mean Offensive Linemen don't score points, they do contribute to points more directly than say a Punter, I would say a Punter is more of a defensive player as its his job to try and give the opposition bad field position which makes it harder to score. So by that you have Defensive Linemen in the HOF who never scored points.