Most underrated player in baseball?

[nflman2033]

You're right, in seven years teams of teams aggressively employing this strategy they have only won 2 championships and taken part in 6 World Series.

Awful.

2/7 = 29%

That's some revolutionary shit right there

 

[FedEx227]

2/7 = 29%

That's some revolutionary shit right there

That's actually a really good number based of the relative amount of teams using it as aggressively as those that I listed (7-8), but yeah... total shit.

23% of the league accounting for 29% of the World Series victories in the past seven years is pretty large.

 

[nflman2033]

There were medical practices widely use for hundreds if not thousands of years that have since been debunked and are no longer used in favor of newer, better practices.

But you are comparing the use of leeches in medicine to batting average as if leeches were an outdated but still used form of medical care, as I said there is still an award given to the person with the highest Avg, last I checked they don't give out Nobel prizes for using obsolete technology in the medical field

 

[nflman2033]

That's actually a really good number based of the relative amount of teams using it as aggressively as those that I listed (7-8), but yeah... total shit.

23% of the league accounting for 29% of the World Series victories in the past seven years is pretty large.

But 70% of the winners don't employ the strategy. So its not like its leaps and bounds better

 

[FedEx227]

But you are comparing the use of leeches in medicine to batting average as if leeches were an outdated but still used form of medical care, as I said there is still an award given to the person with the highest Avg, last I checked they don't give out Nobel prizes for using obsolete technology in the medical field

Which is odd considering Bud Selig is usually on the cutting edge of innovation and change...

 

[FedEx227]

But 70% of the winners don't employ the strategy. So its not like its leaps and bounds better

But 73% of the league is in that 70% pool... again... RELATIVE.

 

[nflman2033]

But 73% of the league is in that 70% pool... again... RELATIVE.

Not saying its not relative, just not as overwhelming as you are making it out to be.

And again it is still one team making up 100% of the wins.

That team is a big market high budget team

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

But 70% of the winners don't employ the strategy. So its not like its leaps and bounds better

Let's be fair here. I have serious doubts that there is a single front office that does not value OBP or OPS over batting average these days.

That is not to say that every front office has fully embraced questionable stuff like FIP, BABIP, or my personal favorite trendy stat of the moment (not Ruben) SIERA. They may not have scratched it from the board, but nobody is relying on batting average anymore.

 

[FedEx227]

Exactly. Which is why I noted "aggressive" one being those that are all in on FIP, BABIP, etc. But 30/30 front offices value OBP and OPS over batting average.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

As someone who is firmly planted in the middle when it comes to new vs old baseball stats (I think there are some great new stats, and there are some that I disregard. I think RBI is so overrated that it's now underrated), I think when it comes to batting average, all things being equal anyone would take the guy with the higher average. Der. A hit is better than a walk in almost any situation aside from bases empty.

I don't think the metrics crowd hates batting average. I think there is room on any team for a .330 hitter, even if he only walks 30 times per year (hi, Bill Madlock!).

But to argue OBP vs. batting average is just goofy. One weighs (almost) all of the ways to reach base, the other weights one way. I mean, c'mon.

 

[nflman2033]

As someone who is firmly planted in the middle when it comes to new vs old baseball stats (I think there are some great new stats, and there are some that I disregard. I think RBI is so overrated that it's now underrated), I think when it comes to batting average, all things being equal anyone would take the guy with the higher average. Der. A hit is better than a walk in almost any situation aside from bases empty.

I don't think the metrics crowd hates batting average. I think there is room on any team for a .330 hitter, even if he only walks 30 times per year (hi, Bill Madlock!).

But to argue OBP vs. batting average is just goofy. One weighs (almost) all of the ways to reach base, the other weights one way. I mean, c'mon.

never did I discount OBP nor say Batting Average is the best stat to look at, but I can't agree with just dismissing it all together. unless the bases are loaded you can not drive in runs by walking.

 

[Goober]

Let's be fair here. I have serious doubts that there is a single front office that does not value OBP or OPS over batting average these days.

That is not to say that every front office has fully embraced questionable stuff like FIP, BABIP, or my personal favorite trendy stat of the moment (not Ruben) SIERA. They may not have scratched it from the board, but nobody is relying on batting average anymore.

I think a lot of teams have their own metrics that they value more so then what fangraphs is pushing out. Unfortunately, unless you work in baseball you'll never be exposed to that kind of stuff.

 

[FedEx227]

never did I discount OBP nor say Batting Average is the best stat to look at, but I can't agree with just dismissing it all together. unless the bases are loaded you can not drive in runs by walking.

That's a philosophical difference in baseball thinking as well.

Some people are on the out-prevention side while others are on run creation. Some thing that no matter what you do if you attempt to avoid outs runs will naturally come.

 

[nflman2033]

That's a philosophical difference in baseball thinking as well.

Some people are on the out-prevention side while others are on run creation. Some thing that no matter what you do if you attempt to avoid outs runs will naturally come.

in theory, but the best way to drive in runs is the hit the ball with runners in scoring position.

however i concede that you must first get runners in scoring position by any means you can

i want a guy with a high batting average with runners in scoring position vs a guy with a high OBP with runners in scoring position.

 

[FirstTimer]

never did I discount OBP nor say Batting Average is the best stat to look at, but I can't agree with just dismissing it all together. unless the bases are loaded you can not drive in runs by walking.

Maybe, but there's not many front offices that DON'T employ MBAs these days.

Off the top of my head I can bet that Texas, San Diego, Boston (and now Chicago NL), Oakland, Seattle, Blue Jays and Tampa Bay are all teams that rarely, if ever worry about a players batting average.

I still thinks it's something all FO's look at but use it as part of the process instead of the end all be all it once was. I think now it's part of the evaluation process and IMO is still a valuable number to every front office. More valuable than others? No. But it's a number people look at and use to build the bigger picture when evaluating a player.

 

[nflman2033]

I still thinks it's something all FO's look at but use it as part of the process instead of the end all be all it once was. I think now it's part of the evaluation process and IMO is still a valuable number to every front office. More valuable than others? No. But it's a number people look at and use to build the bigger picture when evaluating a player.

yes exactly I can't disregard it all together, its what separates guys like Adam Dunn from guys like Albert Puljos.

 

[NAHSTE]

edit ... don't really care enough to bother

 

[nflman2033]

edit ... don't really care enough to bother

ah man what was it

 

[NAHSTE]

It used to be Nellie Cruz but now he's hitting himself into "people realized this guy was underrated so now he's a bit overrated" territory.

So who is it?

In retrospect, this was a slightly better selection than say ... Adam Dunn.

:dizzle:

 

[FedEx227]

Again Adam Dunn had the biggest collapse of any offensive player ever. Let's not act like anyone here was predicting him to have a 60 OPS+