UFC 98: Machida vs Evans

[Kuzzy Powers]

Griffin's chin is not as damaged as Arlovski's. However, Griffin did go 5-rounds with Rampage.

Griffin has a weaker chin than most, even though he usually always takes a lot of damage.

Did I just contradict myself?

Yes.. yes you did. Griffin is one of the toughest LHW's out there. I dont know if that translates into a good chin but Griffin can certainly take a beating.

 

[Liquidrob]

Griffin's chin is not as damaged as Arlovski's. However, Griffin did go 5-rounds with Rampage.

Griffin has a weaker chin than most, even though he usually always takes a lot of damage.

Did I just contradict myself?

yes you did, lol

anyway, what I was trying to point out earlier in this thread is that in MMA with the small gloves anything can happen, there are not many fighters in MMA who have great chins, maybe a hand full, the key is more not getting hit flush

You cant tell me Fedor has a great chin or Silva, Machida, etc...because they rarely if ever get hit flush

AA has been hit flush just to much, those shots would have dropped 99% of the MMA fighters out there because thats the nature of the sport, only questionable 1 was the Tim punch, but it was a short shot where he was coming in and it stunned him, just look at Hunt/Manhoef, Hunt has been blasted and barely flinches, but he got caught running in against a 185 lber and was put to sleep

Only truely great chins we have seen in MMA have been Big Nog, Cabbage, Hunt and maybe a couple of others, but it is a short list

Rampage has a good chin, he was put out by Wand and Shogun but those were more of beatings that finally put him down and has come back strong, Penn has showed a very good chin and can take damage

I would say there are only a couple glass jaws out there right now, and more of it has to do with age and not being able to get out of the way of a clean shot, Ken is 1 of them, Chuck looks to be in the same boat, Tito cant take a hit, Randy could be put in that same boat but he is better at changing his gameplan and not getting hit in fights and Wand has always had a suspect chin but had great recovery time which he no longer has

Those gloves are worse than getting hit than bare knuckle, they are wrapped and taped and makes you hand like a brick, if it was still bare knuckle you wouldnt see half the KO's you see now a days

People say GSP has a weak chin, lol, he hasnt even been hit cleanly on the chin, Serra clubbed him like a baby seal on the ear/back of the ear, I dont see where people think he has a weak chin, just something they say

sidenote: anyone else find it funny I'm sticking up for AA's chin and I have a picture of him half dead in my avatar? lol

 

[Liquidrob]

Ok, forget who beat who and tell me straight up who has a better standup game machida and silva or fedor?

if you want to get technical about Machida, his hands are not perfect, he has a great left straight, his best punch, but his other punches are average at best, what makes it work is his tactics and elusiveness

his footwork is great, but he leaves his chin out there and drops his hands a lot, but he makes it work for him with his other qualities like Fedor does

even in the end of the rashad fight he was just swinging (he did show nice killer instinct though), if he leaves his chin out like that against Rampage its lights out

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gMYJc1OkttY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gMYJc1OkttY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

[Liquidrob]

Being top 5 in your weight class doesnt qualify someone as elite. You cant sit there and tell me between 155-hw theres minimum 25 "elite" fighters.

wait, so you're saying there is not 5 elite fighters in each weight class?

ok, I'll name some

HW

Fedor
Barnett
AA
I'll throw in Brock and Mir and leave Tim out for you, but Tim is argueable because of who he fought and Mir and Brock are the 'champs'
Brock
Mir

LHW

Machida
Rampage
Forrest
Shogun
Rashad

MW

Silva
Lawler
Okami
Belfort
Winner of Bisping/Hendo
Depending on weight, Mousasi is right there at MW and on the verge of LHW
Winner of Maia and Nate is right there also

WW

GSP
Alves
Fitch
Hughes
Jake Shields

LW

Penn
Aoki
Hansen
JZ
Florian
With guys like Alvarez, Thompson, Griffin, etc.. right behind them

So, there are atleast 5 a weight class, throw in Rich at MW or LHW if he does something, alos left out Wand and Cro Cop if they make a splash, Nick Diaz wherever you put him, I'm sure I''m missing more, this is just off the top of my head

 

[Steel Mamba]

if you want to get technical about Machida, his hands are not perfect, he has a great left straight, his best punch, but his other punches are average at best, what makes it work is his tactics and elusiveness

his footwork is great, but he leaves his chin out there and drops his hands a lot, but he makes it work for him with his other qualities like Fedor does

even in the end of the rashad fight he was just swinging (he did show nice killer instinct though), if he leaves his chin out like that against Rampage its lights out

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gMYJc1OkttY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gMYJc1OkttY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

It's hard to say that Machida is doing certain things wrong because his style is so unique. It's not a boxing or kick boxing style, it's some slick karate shit, so you can't really analyze him the same way you would with mostly anyone else.

Let me put it like this, you're going to have a much easier time coming up with a gameplan to beat Fedor standing than you would with Machida.

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

This argument is getting pretty ridiculous..

 

[Liquidrob]

This argument is getting pretty ridiculous..

than dont post if you have nothing to add but this, I for 1 like this thread

 

[Steel Mamba]

fedor has done better against better comp, thats what counts

machida probably is the most tactical, never really gets hit, but hasnt faced anyone as good as AA and Cro Cop

silva is more flashy, looks pretty but just like Machida hasnt faced the level of striker Fedor has faced

I said forget who beat who. But, anyway I know you know the deal, you're just not going to admit it. It's the same thing with basketball, people know Kobe Bryant is better than Jordan, but for whatever reason they're just afraid to admit it. :bandit:

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

than dont post if you have nothing to add but this, I for 1 like this thread

You dont like being called ridiculous Rob? Im sure its not a first for you.

You guys are going back and forth and accomplishing nothing. You're discussing whos faced more technical boxers.. as if something like this can be proven on either end. You've also now branched into whether or not Machida or Fedor is harder to plan for. What are the solid guidelines in determining this? You're a Fedor dick rider and noone is going to convince you otherwise.. and its pretty evident you're not going to prove Mamba otherwise either.

And dont cry, been adding my input on MMA since before you even came to VSN.

 

[Liquidrob]

You dont like being called ridiculous Rob? Im sure its not a first for you.

You guys are going back and forth and accomplishing nothing. You're discussing whos faced more technical boxers.. as if something like this can be proven on either end. You've also now branched into whether or not Machida or Fedor is harder to plan for. What are the solid guidelines in determining this? You're a Fedor dick rider and noone is going to convince you otherwise.. and its pretty evident you're not going to prove Mamba otherwise either.

And dont cry, been adding my input on MMA since before you even came to VSN.

Umm, so what, this is the most posts that the MMA threads have gotten in VSN history and thats a good thing

Hey, I got an idea, lets go back to a couple posts a day, thats sounds like fun!

I like reading Steel Mambas posts and RS, etc...its a good discussion and I like to see where people stand on certain fighters and whats there level of MMA knowledge, this is how you get it out of them, not by saying 'GSP is a beast', or stuff like that and everyone agreeing

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

Hey by all means discuss MMA. Im just saying what the convo has ventured into is ridiculous cause neither of you can really prove a solid point.

Point taken.. ridiculous or not, MMA discussion is good discussion.

 

[Liquidrob]

I said forget who beat who. But, anyway I know you know the deal, you're just not going to admit it. It's the same thing with basketball, people know Kobe Bryant is better than Jordan, but for whatever reason they're just afraid to admit it. :bandit:

technically, I would say Silva is the best looking of the 3, Machida has the best tactics, Fedor has done it against better strikers

machidas and fedor are probably technically on the same level, Machida blends his Karate and Muay Thai with a counter style, Fedor uses more Russian boxing techniques and blends in his Sambo grappling with putting more power behind his shots

Fedor can go easily from striking to grappling than both, Machida can keep the distance better than both without getting hit and Silva is more accurate than both

sidenote: I find it funny that when I pointed out Machidas technically faults you say you cant judge him because he fights with a karate style but than you hold Fedors striking faults to a boxers style, that doesnt seem right

 

[Steel Mamba]

sidenote: I find it funny that when I pointed out Machidas technically faults you say you cant judge him because he fights with a karate style but than you hold Fedors striking faults to a boxers style, that doesnt seem right

Well yeah because Fedors striking is based off of boxing, whereas Machidas is not. So, I can't judge him on what he's not trying to do. You can say that the style itself is bad, but given the results he has had with it that's going to be a hard sell.

His striking is great and you know this, you even said that Rashad should have taken Machida down, and Rashad has pretty good hands and always comes out with a solid gameplan for the standup battle. He's very, very hard for anyone to strike with and we'll continue to see that.

 

[Liquidrob]

Well yeah because Fedors striking is based off of boxing, whereas Machidas is not. So, I can't judge him on what he's not trying to do. You can say that the style itself is bad, but given the results he has had with it that's going to be a hard sell.

His striking is great and you know this, you even said that Rashad should have taken Machida down, and Rashad has pretty good hands and always comes out with a solid gameplan for the standup battle. He's very, very hard for anyone to strike with and we'll continue to see that.

of course he is and so is fedor, I dont see why you cant see that point, just because AA threw some glancing blows that did zero damage before being KO'd?

Machida, Silva and Fedor have all proven to be great MMA strikers

 

[Liquidrob]

Chuck has proven to be a great MMA striker, but he is not technically sound either, but thats what worked for him, the difference between Chuck and Fedor is when he has fought top strikers Fedor has beat them and Chuck has been knocked into next week

 

[Liquidrob]

Well yeah because Fedors striking is based off of boxing, whereas Machidas is not. So, I can't judge him on what he's not trying to do. You can say that the style itself is bad, but given the results he has had with it that's going to be a hard sell.

His striking is great and you know this, you even said that Rashad should have taken Machida down, and Rashad has pretty good hands and always comes out with a solid gameplan for the standup battle. He's very, very hard for anyone to strike with and we'll continue to see that.

you're holding fedor to a much higher standard than silva and machida, silva has competed in kickboxing and boxing at lower levels and hasnt done great, Machida has fought in karate tournaments and done well, but K1 is the highest level for kickboxing stylists, just like Andy Hug and couple other shotokan fighters have done, the same style as machida

both have not faced the level of striking that fedor has, but you think these guys are way better strikers just on looks, you seem to just try and knock fedor for his technique and give him zero credit for his competiton level and are not holding machida and silva to the same standard

 

[EmpireWF]

Anderson Silva does not take a lot of damage, same with Machida. With Machida, that dude just bobs and weaves his head away whenever his opponent goes for a jab or a cross. It's hilarious/amazing watching Machida avoid taking a strike.

With Silva, people are just too scared to stand and go for a combo. Rightfully so, I'd fear for my life if Silva ever got me in a Muay Thai clinch.

Is Fedor that great on his feet besides his obvious KO power? If Arlovski doesn't jump like a fool, was he about to hurt Fedor or finish the fight?

 

[CrimsonGhost56]

the greatest to ever step in the ring regardless of technique or whatever. now everyone stfu and bow down

 

[Steel Mamba]

Chuck has proven to be a great MMA striker, but he is not technically sound either, but thats what worked for him, the difference between Chuck and Fedor is when he has fought top strikers Fedor has beat them and Chuck has been knocked into next week

I'm glad you actually brought up Chuck because that helps prove my point. Chuck was a product of his environment as well and was also fortunate that there weren't any great or technical strikers in the UFC's LHW division when he had his long reign as champ. I know it sounds cruel, but Chuck's striking was never good and it still isn't. That's why he has been getting dropped lately, it's not due to his age because Rampage schooled him back in 03 when Chuck was still in his prime. He's still the same fighter today, the only difference is there's now a ton of good strikers in the UFC that are able to expose the huge holes in his standup game.

Fedor is a little bit different only because he's much more willing to be versatile and doesn't rely on his striking. But, I'm telling you if he starts facing good strikers who can keep the fight standing then he's going to be in trouble. There's just no other way around it unless he cleans up his boxing. Chuck didn't fight strikers and everyone thought he was one of the best strikers ever, then he starts facing guys with some standup skill and he gets exposed. Same thing could potentially happen to Fedor, it's no coincidence.

 

[Steel Mamba]

Anderson Silva does not take a lot of damage, same with Machida. With Machida, that dude just bobs and weaves his head away whenever his opponent goes for a jab or a cross. It's hilarious/amazing watching Machida avoid taking a strike.

With Silva, people are just too scared to stand and go for a combo. Rightfully so, I'd fear for my life if Silva ever got me in a Muay Thai clinch.

Is Fedor that great on his feet besides his obvious KO power? If Arlovski doesn't jump like a fool, was he about to hurt Fedor or finish the fight?

Yes, finally some people are starting to come around. & look I'm not trying to bash Fedor at all, he's still by far the best MMA HW in the history of the sport. But, he has one glaring hole, and that's his standup. That's all I'm trying to say.

In terms of P4P rankings I think you have to size guys up based on their skill. In other words who would reign supreme if all weight advantages were somehow made equal. That's the way you have to look at it right? I see guys like GSP and Silva being very capable of exposing those holes in Fedors game. Again, maybe I've jumped the gun on Machida, but time will soon tell.