UFC 98: Machida vs Evans

[Liquidrob]

Since when is Tim Sylvia an elite heavyweight? lmao

If you want to talk about 'elite' heavyweights these days besides Fedor...I'll give you Barnett (although I think that can be arguable)....but you gotta give me Brock. Sure the man has only three pro fights...but he's a beast who has only looked bad for the seconds he was caught in the sub.

If you want to say that Big Nog is shot now, I would disagree but I can see the argument.

Mir looks good, is one of the most dangerous heavyweights on the ground and is a solid stand-up fighter. If you don't consider him an elite heavy, alright, I can see how he still has what to prove (only if you consider Nog to be shot).

Is Arlovski shot? The man has no chin whatsoever...sure his boxing game may be the best of any heavyweight, but what good is it if he can't take a punch?

The UFC heavyweight division is still damn good....who cares if they are older or not in their primes (Randy, Nog), I would pay to see them fight.

I will love watching Arlovski fight in Strikeforce, but I'm not missing him in the UFC...although he would pose an interesting match-up to Brock.

Tim was the best UFC HW along with AA for about 3 years, he has only lost to the best of the best, Brock Lesner is 2-1 in the UFC and you want to call him elite?

What happened to actually winning fights to be considered elite?

So a guy who is 24-5 and a multiple time champ is not elite but a who beat Heath and Randy after a 11 month lay off is?

 

[Steel Mamba]

Rob showed no love for Sylvia until Fedor beat him, lol.

 

[Liquidrob]

Rob showed no love for Sylvia until Fedor beat him, lol.

I still dont like Tim, never have, but he won fights and those are facts, just like Sherk in his lay and pray days, but doesnt mean I like to watch them now, I would pass of there fights unless they fight someone good

 

[CrimsonGhost56]

is big timmy still a top heavy? i dont really see it. he sports an impressive record and has held the belt but hasnt been that great recently even in his victories. in the past three years what victory has stood out besides AA? a win is a win but theres a difference between finishing someone and going the distance most of the time in snoozers.

Loss Fedor Emelianenko Submission (Rear-Naked Choke) Affliction - Banned 7/19/2008 1 0:36
Loss Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira Submission (Guillotine Choke) UFC 81 - Breaking Point 2/2/2008 3 1:28
Win Brandon Vera Decision (Unanimous) UFC 77 - Hostile Territory 10/20/2007 3 5:00
Loss Randy Couture Decision (Unanimous) UFC 68 - Uprising 3/3/2007 5 5:00
Win Jeff Monson Decision (Unanimous) UFC 65 - Bad Intentions 11/18/2006 5 5:00
Win Andrei Arlovski Decision (Unanimous) UFC 61 - Bitter Rivals 7/8/2006 5 5:00
Win Andrei Arlovski TKO (Punches) UFC 59 - Reality Check 4/15/2006 1 2:43
Win Assuerio Silva Decision (Unaminous) UFC - Ultimate Fight Night 3 1/16/2006 3 5:00

 

[Liquidrob]

Of course AA is a great striker and he has faced Fedor, so I didn't include him in that list. What does Anderson Silva fighting strikers have to do with anything? The difference is we know Silva is a capable and technical striker, so I don't need to see him face the worlds best strikers. It's like saying that Reggie Miller needs to compete in a 3-point contest, for what he has nothing to prove, we already know his 3 pointer is money. What strikers out there would be a favorite over Anderson? Not many right.

Now, you can say that he needs to fight more ground guys, that would make sense. Same with Machida, but strikers, that's irrelevant to the point.

But anyway being succesful in K1 doesn't always mean that you're going to be a great or technical striker in MMA. Mark Hunt charged in way too often leaving his chin exposed, and swung wildly at times. He was not a very technical striker, he had good/fast feet for his size, but other than that his standup game wasn't too impressive.

Cro Cop was not at all good at controlling the ring and his hands weren't great either. He has the best kicks I've ever seen, but his overall standup wasn't great.

Semmy, guys always just take him down right away and his takedown defense is pretty poor. When he is standing given his reach he should be a lot better than he is, so he doesn't compare to a lot of the guys that I listed.


Forget all of that though, let's break it down like this. Silva vs Fedor skill for skill, resumes aside:

Striking - Anderson Silva
Accuracy - Anderson Silva
Wrestling - Fedor
BJJ/Subs - Fedor, pretty slick for a big guy, but again Silva is still no slouch on the ground either.
Speed (relative) - I think Fedor is more heavy handed than quick, I could probably list more HW fighters that are faster than Fedor than I could list MW fighters who are faster than Silva.
Footwork - Anderson Silva
Power - Fedor

Maybe I'm jumping the gun on Machida, but I don't see why it's such a stretch that I like Silva over Fedor.

It is relevent for them to beat some top level stikers if you want to say they are great strikers, Silva has fought kickboxing and lost against Pele, has fought boxing and hasnt done that well, he looks pretty when he fights guys he is way better than, but until he beats some top flight strikers you cant really tell

Like Sherk, pretty on the pads, never does well striking in fights, BJ boxed him up with just a jab and a little reach, I wouldnt call Sherk an elite striker

Silva and Machida seem to be great MMA strikers, but they havent done it against top strikers yet

You say Fedor isnt a great striker but has KO'ed 1 of the best technical boxers in MMA and took it to K1 level strikers, something neither Silva or Machida has done

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

lol, I 'hate' the UFC so much that 4 out of my top 5 fighters are all in the UFC, only non UFC fighter crack my top 5 is fedor and probably maybe only 1 other in my top 10, the UFC has the best fighters across all divisions hands down, but not at HW

Barnett left the UFC as the HW champ and has always been elite and is 24-5 and ranked top 2-5 by everyone

AA left the UFC on a 3 fight win streak (when does that happen? lol) and is as good or better than any UFC HW, you think Frank Mir has a chance against AA? He is easily right in the title picture, Brock and AA would be a great fight

Tim left the UFC with a win also and is 24-5, he is a boring goofball but he wins, plain and simple, his only losses have been to Fedor, Nog, AA and Randy

All these 'UFC rejects' left with wins, funny how the UFC brain washes people about ex-fighters

You seem top think quite differently of guys soon as they leave/arrive.

AA/Barnett are not elite. They are "good" HWs.
Big Nog , Cro Cop , were great. When matched with Fedor they were at least a challenge.
Barnett has done nothing impressive in years. Hes been biding time on old reputation. Losing twice his last appearances in Pride doesnt scream elite.
lol @ Sylvia being elite. Like AA way too soft a jaw to be considered elite.

you can say that about the LHW division in the UFC, only Machida doesnt have a loss, everyone else has beat each other up and its 1 of the UFC's best divisions

Nope. Forrest , Rampage , Rashad are all elite , none have the glaring weaknesses AA/Sylvia do . All have been facing much higher talent levels and better fighters than AA/Barnett/Sylvia have.


Bottom line no HW outside of Fedor belongs in a p4p discussion.

Weak as it is UFC at least has more upside with Carwin / Brock. 2 talented beasts.
Theres no upside with AA/Barnett/Sylvia. Unless Barnett pulls off some miracle its going to be the round robin of HW mediocrity same as it is in UFC.

 

[EmpireWF]

UFC didn't want Sylvia, especially once he got the monster offer from Affliction.

UFC would have liked to keep Arlovski but not at the cost Affliction paid.

It's not like the UFC heavies are devoid of talent. IMO, they have two of the top 5 heavies (Mir, Lesnar...with Fedor, Barnett, Arlovski being the others). Does it make the UFC weak, no way.

I'd agree with KOF that besides Fedor, no heavy belongs in top PFP talk.

 

[Liquidrob]

You seem top think quite differently of guys soon as they leave/arrive.

AA/Barnett are not elite. They are "good" HWs.
Big Nog , Cro Cop , were great. When matched with Fedor they were at least a challenge.
Barnett has done nothing impressive in years. Hes been biding time on old reputation. Losing twice his last appearances in Pride doesnt scream elite.
lol @ Sylvia being elite. Like AA way too soft a jaw to be considered elite.







Nope. Forrest , Rampage , Rashad are all elite , none have the glaring weaknesses AA/Sylvia do . All have been facing much higher talent levels and better fighters than AA/Barnett/Sylvia have.


Bottom line no HW outside of Fedor belongs in a p4p discussion.

Weak as it is UFC at least has more upside with Carwin / Brock. 2 talented beasts.
Theres no upside with AA/Barnett/Sylvia. Unless Barnett pulls off some miracle its going to be the round robin of HW mediocrity same as it is in UFC.

How can you not call AA and Barnett Elite? Thats crazy, Elite is top 5 and they are both argueable in the top 5 of there weight class, barnett easily, AA is right there, I never said any of them were in the p4p discussion, just top 5 in there weight class

Forrest has been KO'ed bad by Jardine and Rashad, you can say he has a weak chin, Rampage cant check a leg kick and has been brutalized in the clinch by Wand and Shogun, Rashad only has 1 loss, cant say much, but the LHWs have all been exposed at some point and beat each other up besides Machida

 

[Liquidrob]

is big timmy still a top heavy? i dont really see it. he sports an impressive record and has held the belt but hasnt been that great recently even in his victories. in the past three years what victory has stood out besides AA? a win is a win but theres a difference between finishing someone and going the distance most of the time in snoozers.

well, Tim is tough because his last 3 fights have been against 3 of the best, randy for a 1 fight deal is as tough as they come, but in the long run he usually wins 2 and losses 1, Nog was right in the 2-4 range when he beat Tim and fedor was number 1

Not many HWs have fought who he fought recently, if he was back in the UFC he would be right in the title picture

 

[Liquidrob]

Also, you guys are judging and ranking Brock and Carwin off potenial instead of actually results, Carwin beat Gonzaga and Brock beat Randy after a long lay off, I think a 11 month lay off affects a 48 year old more than a young guy

those 2 have not done much, also, how can AA not have any upside? I think he is 30, both Brock and Carwin are older than him

 

[Liquidrob]

I'd agree with KOF that besides Fedor, no heavy belongs in top PFP talk.

Heavys in general are never in the p4p talk, only super talented guys like Ali and Fedor

I never said any of those guy were in that debate, elite for there weight class though

 

[Steel Mamba]

You say Fedor isnt a great striker but has KO'ed 1 of the best technical boxers in MMA and took it to K1 level strikers, something neither Silva or Machida has done

-

But anyway being succesful in K1 doesn't always mean that you're going to be a great or technical striker in MMA. Mark Hunt charged in way too often leaving his chin exposed, and swung wildly at times. He was not a very technical striker, he had good/fast feet for his size, but other than that his standup game wasn't too impressive.

Cro Cop was not at all good at controlling the ring and his hands weren't great either. He has the best kicks I've ever seen, but his overall standup wasn't great.

Semmy, guys always just take him down right away and his takedown defense is pretty poor. When he is standing given his reach he should be a lot better than he is, so he doesn't compare to a lot of the guys that I listed.

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

How can you not call AA and Barnett Elite? Thats crazy, Elite is top 5 and they are both argueable in the top 5 of there weight class, barnett easily, AA is right there, I never said any of them were in the p4p discussion, just top 5 in there weight class

Forrest has been KO'ed bad by Jardine and Rashad, you can say he has a weak chin, Rampage cant check a leg kick and has been brutalized in the clinch by Wand and Shogun, Rashad only has 1 loss, cant say much, but the LHWs have all been exposed at some point and beat each other up besides Machida

Being top 5 in your weight class doesnt qualify someone as elite. You cant sit there and tell me between 155-hw theres minimum 25 "elite" fighters.

Youd be a maniac to call Forrest chin a weakness. He's let his guard down too easy and too eager to get into wild exchanges, but thats mental nothing physical. AA/Sylvia have shown suspect chins and rocked by one shot numerous times.
Rampage cant check a leg kick ? He has trouble for 2-3 rounds with Forest' leg kick all of a sudden he cant check it ?
You reallllly reaching to prove a bad point.

AA isnt getting any better. His chin isnt getting any stronger.
Brock and Carwin have alot more experience to gain , MUCH better physical assets for there style of fighting. Thats upside.

 

[Liquidrob]

I read it the first time, the facts are Fedor has out struck and beat strikers at there own game, someone Silva and Machida have not done with against the level of talent Fedor has done it

AA and Cro Cop > Any Striker both Silva and Machida faced and thats not even Fedors strong point, you call it a 'weakness', I say his weakness still wrecks elite level strikers, not a bad weakenss IMO

Silva and Machida look pretty against Rich Franklin, Chris Leben and Bonnar, but lets see them do it against the level of talent Fedor has in the striking department

Machida atleast has done it against a fast and explosive Rashad, but he is still an inexperienced striker and hasnt been doing it for long, he still has skills, but he just started to come into the striking game and has more to work on

 

[Liquidrob]

Being top 5 in your weight class doesnt qualify someone as elite. You cant sit there and tell me between 155-hw theres minimum 25 "elite" fighters.

Youd be a maniac to call Forrest chin a weakness. He's let his guard down too easy and too eager to get into wild exchanges, but thats mental nothing physical. AA/Sylvia have shown suspect chins and rocked by one shot numerous times.
Rampage cant check a leg kick ? He has trouble for 2-3 rounds with Forest' leg kick all of a sudden he cant check it ?
You reallllly reaching to prove a bad point.

AA isnt getting any better. His chin isnt getting any stronger.
Brock and Carwin have alot more experience to gain , MUCH better physical assets for there style of fighting. Thats upside.

Rampage was destroyed in the clinch by Wand and Shogun, had problems with Forrests leg kicks and Jardines, to say he doesnt have glaring weaknesses is crazy, oh I forogt, 'what happens in japan stays in japan'

Forrest has been dropped badly twice, you can say the same about AA if you want to say tha about letting his guard downt, he got dropped by Rizzo (1 of the hardest punchers ever), Fedor in mid air, Tim (Good power) and it was only 1 shot in 3 fights he got rocked and in an early fight in his career, I would say his chin is suspect, yes, but not glass

Shawn Carwin is like 34, works a full time job and isnt that quick, but has heavy hands, I like him but he is nowhere the talent of AA

How can you say AA isnt getting better? His boxing gets better every fight, he hasnt regressed at all in his stand up and actually has gotten better

 

[Liquidrob]

Oh, I forgot, Forrest also got KO'ed by a headkick from Jeremy Horn

Jeremy Freakin Horn

So lets review

AA Knockouts

Fedor
Big Tim
Rizzo
forgot his name, some cray russian

Forrests Knockouts

Rashad
Jardine
Jeremy Horn

So in your eyes AA's chin is shot but Forrest has an iron chin, come on now

 

[Steel Mamba]

I read it the first time, the facts are Fedor has out struck and beat strikers at there own game, someone Silva and Machida have not done with against the level of talent Fedor has done it

AA and Cro Cop > Any Striker both Silva and Machida faced and thats not even Fedors strong point, you call it a 'weakness', I say his weakness still wrecks elite level strikers, not a bad weakenss IMO

Silva and Machida look pretty against Rich Franklin, Chris Leben and Bonnar, but lets see them do it against the level of talent Fedor has in the striking department

Machida atleast has done it against a fast and explosive Rashad, but he is still an inexperienced striker and hasnt been doing it for long, he still has skills, but he just started to come into the striking game and has more to work on

Ok, forget who beat who and tell me straight up who has a better standup game machida and silva or fedor?

 

[Liquidrob]

Ok, forget who beat who and tell me straight up who has a better standup game machida and silva or fedor?

fedor has done better against better comp, thats what counts

machida probably is the most tactical, never really gets hit, but hasnt faced anyone as good as AA and Cro Cop

silva is more flashy, looks pretty but just like Machida hasnt faced the level of striker Fedor has faced

 

[EmpireWF]

Griffin's chin is not as damaged as Arlovski's. However, Griffin did go 5-rounds with Rampage.

Griffin has a weaker chin than most, even though he usually always takes a lot of damage.

Did I just contradict myself?

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

Just for the record, Tim Sylvia blows. And is not an Elite heavyweight. I fucking hate the guy tho so definite negative bias..