UFC 98: Machida vs Evans

[RosettaStoned]

many fighters go in with just as much weight difference as BJ vs GSP even in there own weight class

Outside of heavyweight, that's a rarity.

 

[RosettaStoned]

What's Silva's weakest skill? The ground game.

GSP has the skills to take Silva down and beat him there.

So did Dan Henderson, and Thales Leites. Except they didn't, and neither does GSP. When GSP get's destroyed in that fight, I won't move him down any in my p4p rankings, and I won't move Anderson up either.

 

[EmpireWF]

Outside of heavyweight, that's a rarity.

We may see how GSP deals with being the smaller guy when he fights Alves (if he can make weight).

 

[Bigpapa42]

Brock, Mir, Noguiera, Kongo, Herring, Couture, Dos Santos, Carwin, Gonzaga.

I'm positive Fedor can beat them all. Dana White has already explained that Fedor would love to fight in the UFC. Just the guys behind making the contract want the UFC to build a arena in Russia. You'd have to watch the whole Machida/Evans pre-fight press conference.

Sherdog.com doesn't even have Fedor as #1, so obviously i'm not the only one who thinks it.

Brock is a physical freak. He is also a 3-1 fighter with one quality win. Oodles of potential and he very well may dominate the UFC HW division for years, but he has a lot yet to prove. A win over Mir could do that.

Mir I'm still not sold on. You can't take anything away from his win over Nog, but his rematch against Lesnar will go a long way to show where Mir really is. How much does his win over Lesnar mean? Looks pretty good right now, but that can change. The motorcycle accident obviously affected his career, but Lesnar and Nog are his only quality wins in five years.

Nog has been beaten by Fedor. Twice. Epically.

Herring took a worse beating that Nog from Fedor.

Cheick Congo is a solid HW. Has yet to prove he's anywhere near elite.

Couture remains a question mark due to his age. Love the guy, but he can't go forever.

Dos Santos is a promising guy who has one win of note. Over a guy that apparently doesn't count as a quality win for Arlovski, so...

Carwin is an intriguing guy with a ton of potential, but he also only has one notable win.

Gonzaga is a solid fighter who also has one win of note, and who has lost to every other quality HW he has faced .

I'd love to see Fedor in the UFC. But the HW division is easily the UFC's weakest. There are some very good HWs outside of the UFC. Obviously Arlovski, Sylvia, and Barnett, but also the likes of Jeff Monson, Ben Rothwell, and Allistar Overeem. Trying to look at the UFC HW division as a high level of competition for Fedor just isn't accurate.

Also interesting that you are wanting to use Sherdog's P4P rankings, but do you give Arlovski credit for being #2 on the HW Sherdog rankings? Or Sylvia for being #8?

 

[RosettaStoned]

We may see how GSP deals with being the smaller guy when he fights Alves (if he can make weight).

Yeah, but I don't think Alves is that much bigger. He just sucks at cutting weight.

 

[Liquidrob]

No HW in the UFC has proven to be elite, even Randy who has more of an insprirational career by going back and forth inbetween LHW and HW, but Randys days are pretty much past but he is still a great story

Fedor, AA, Barnett and even Tim are elite, only HW they have that was elite is Nog, he is a shell of his former self and took 1 to many beatings from Fedor and others, he is now Zombie Nog

Brock and Mir can fight each other 10 times in a row, doesnt really do much for them, Brock has 1 win against Randy after a 11 month lay off, Mir was getting KO'ed by Vera and others just a couple years ago

Gonzaga hasnt done much since the Cro Cop win, Carwins only good win is Gonzaga, Kongo isnt proven much fighting who he is fighting

The UFC HW division is only seen as 'good' because it has the UFC name above it, besides that it isnt worth much

Fedors only legit fight left is Barnett, he could retire now or after Barnett and his career cant be messed with

Only interesting fight after Barnett would be Brock just because he is a beast and has a great wrestling background besides that, maybe Randy but he is almost 50 and that fight died a year ago, lol @ Mir

 

[Liquidrob]

for as much as the hype brock gets, he couldnt hold down randy who usually gets battered when put on his back, see Ricco/Barnett

Randy was putting Brock in the cage and would have got him down if Brock didnt cheat and grab the cage, also his shots seem more like bull rushes, Its probably been a long time since he did some competitive wrestling, has to be almost 10 years, I dont think he did anything after college, randy stuffed a couple of his shots easily

He won with a punch and was starting to suck the wind out of the arena in the 2nd round

 

[Liquidrob]

First of all, there isnt really any great boxers in MMA, AA is probably 1 of the best and Fedor beat him with 1 punch

If they fight again, call me up, we can bet, I got Fedor

Hunt is a K1 winner, he is a great Kickboxer just like Mirko

Where are these great boxers Silva and Machida beat? None of there wins are better boxers than AA or Cro Cop in terms of strikers, I said great 'strikers', not boxers because there are not really great boxers in MMA

None of the strikers Silva or Machida beat are on the level of AA, Cro Cop, Hunt, Semmy or even Big Tim

So Mamba, where are thses great strikers and boxers Silva and Machida beat that compare with what Fedor has faced? I'm still waiting

 

[CrimsonGhost56]

So Mamba, where are thses great strikers and boxers Silva and Machida beat that compare with what Fedor has faced? I'm still waiting

chris leben

now what huh?

 

[Steel Mamba]

First of all, there isnt really any great boxers in MMA, AA is probably 1 of the best and Fedor beat him with 1 punch

If they fight again, call me up, we can bet, I got Fedor

Hunt is a K1 winner, he is a great Kickboxer just like Mirko

Where are these great boxers Silva and Machida beat? None of there wins are better boxers than AA or Cro Cop in terms of strikers, I said great 'strikers', not boxers because there are not really great boxers in MMA

None of the strikers Silva or Machida beat are on the level of AA, Cro Cop, Hunt, Semmy or even Big Tim

I'd feel bad for taking your money from such an easy bet.

& Not just boxers, but technical strikers in general. Fedor has not faced many technical strikers and I feel that he's pretty fortunate that there's not many guys like that in the HW division, because again that's the glaring kryptonite that I see with him.

I don't see any kryptonite with the likes of Anderson or Machida, at least nothing as glaring as with Fedor. You're not going to outclass Anderson or Machida standing up, as I believe the right person could/has with Fedor. You're not going to outclass Anderson on the ground, maybe someone could with Machida, I'll buy that but goodluck getting the guy to the ground in the first place.

Basically here's all I'm getting at - if there was a HW version of Anderson Silva, Machida, Sean Sherk, BJ Penn, maybe Rashad Evans, maybe Rampage, GSP, Faber, etc etc then Fedor would be in a lot of trouble. All of those guys are more technical strikers than Hunt, Sylvia, and maybe even Cro Cop. Not to imply that those guys are better than Fedor, most of them are not, but they all have what it takes to beat him and if that was the case you guys would all see that Fedor isn't as well rounded as you may think due to holes in his standup game. There just aren't many HWs capable of exposing that.

 

[Steel Mamba]

so about that machida

looked pretty good

trying to end the 8 page p4p rankings bitchfest/. this is why p4p rankings are so stupid. no one is ever going to agree. its pointless

lol - its all cool until it breaks down into "you can't read", "no, no, you can't read" type banter then it just gets annoying.

 

[Liquidrob]

wait, so guys who never competed at the higher level of MMA striking (K1) are better than Cro Cop, Semmt and Hunt? or have trained boxing like AA with freddie Roach, yeah that sounds about right

also, where are these strikers that Silva and Machida have out classed, Franklin? Leben? Thiago Silva, please come back stronger than that

Silva was mounted by Travis Lutter, subbed by B level fighters but no one can handle him on the ground, sounds about right, lol

Every arguement you use against Fedor makes it worse for Machida and Silva, ou say he doesnt face great technical strikers, but he has faced better strikers than both, you say Silva cant be handled on the ground but has been mounted and subbed by lower level fighters, I think those guys have just as many holes as you say Fedor has

AA > any boxer type Silva or Machida has faced
Cro Cop > Any kickboxer Silva or Machida has faced
Same with Hunt and Semmy

Mark Coleman > any wrestler those 2 have faced

Nog and Arona > Any grappler those 2 have faced

 

[Liquidrob]

also, I'm still waiting for the list of 'technical' strikers Silva and Machida have beat, can you give me a name or 2? please?

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

Fedor, AA, Barnett and even Tim are elite, only HW they have that was elite is Nog, he is a shell of his former self and took 1 to many beatings from Fedor and others, he is now Zombie Nog

It never ceases to amaze me how guys suddenly become elite once they leave UFC for you. Guys who come in suddenly arent.

It would make your arguments alot more valid if you can get rid of the blatant UFC hatred.issed:


Anyways...
HW is a really shallow pool of talent. You can bunch them all up and its still pretty drab.
Barnett isnt impressive , AA/Sylvia have soft jaws , Couture aged REALLY fast , Big Nog is a shell of his former self , Mir is "good" at best. Overeem lost 4 out of his last 5 in Pride no reason for me to think hes going to beat HWs. Hed have to pass several roid tests to maintain that 255 frame we've seen.

The only guys worth talking about are

Fedor --because hes the greatest p4p fighter of our lifetimes and currently ,by a clear mile despite what some of you fools are hallucinating.

Brock-- Because hes a damn animal. A skilled seasoned Brock is going to be interesting matchup for anyone.

Carwin -- Only because hes an undefeated beast of a guy.

Everyone else has glaring recent losses and weaknesses or are just flat out on the downside of there career,

HW is really deep , but nowhere near as talented as its being made out to be. Its all about Fedor and what young guy can step up and clean up the old guard. Its barely more interesting than 185 at this point. No way any fighter outside of Fedor/Silva* deserve P4P regards in those weight classes.



**If Cung Le decides to fight more than every other leap year hed get top 10 consideration.



FWIW after his 2 recent dysmal performances Id put GSP over Silva.
GSP has a glaring GLARING loss. But Silva 2 consecutive fights failing to dismantle clearly outmatched opponents drops him that hair.

 

[Liquidrob]

It never ceases to amaze me how guys suddenly become elite once they leave UFC for you. Guys who come in suddenly arent.

It would make your arguments alot more valid if you can get rid of the blatant UFC hatred.issed:

lol, I 'hate' the UFC so much that 4 out of my top 5 fighters are all in the UFC, only non UFC fighter crack my top 5 is fedor and probably maybe only 1 other in my top 10, the UFC has the best fighters across all divisions hands down, but not at HW

Barnett left the UFC as the HW champ and has always been elite and is 24-5 and ranked top 2-5 by everyone

AA left the UFC on a 3 fight win streak (when does that happen? lol) and is as good or better than any UFC HW, you think Frank Mir has a chance against AA? He is easily right in the title picture, Brock and AA would be a great fight

Tim left the UFC with a win also and is 24-5, he is a boring goofball but he wins, plain and simple, his only losses have been to Fedor, Nog, AA and Randy

All these 'UFC rejects' left with wins, funny how the UFC brain washes people about ex-fighters

 

[Liquidrob]

Everyone else has glaring recent losses and weaknesses or are just flat out on the downside of there career

you can say that about the LHW division in the UFC, only Machida doesnt have a loss, everyone else has beat each other up and its 1 of the UFC's best divisions

 

[The Buddha]

only "techincal" Strikers on Machida's resume are Penn, Franklin and Bonnar...


Only Penn would be considered Technical i think.


All of these took place, '03-'04

 

[EmpireWF]

Since when is Tim Sylvia an elite heavyweight? lmao

If you want to talk about 'elite' heavyweights these days besides Fedor...I'll give you Barnett (although I think that can be arguable)....but you gotta give me Brock. Sure the man has only three pro fights...but he's a beast who has only looked bad for the seconds he was caught in the sub.

If you want to say that Big Nog is shot now, I would disagree but I can see the argument.

Mir looks good, is one of the most dangerous heavyweights on the ground and is a solid stand-up fighter. If you don't consider him an elite heavy, alright, I can see how he still has what to prove (only if you consider Nog to be shot).

Is Arlovski shot? The man has no chin whatsoever...sure his boxing game may be the best of any heavyweight, but what good is it if he can't take a punch?

The UFC heavyweight division is still damn good....who cares if they are older or not in their primes (Randy, Nog), I would pay to see them fight.

I will love watching Arlovski fight in Strikeforce, but I'm not missing him in the UFC...although he would pose an interesting match-up to Brock.

 

[Steel Mamba]

wait, so guys who never competed at the higher level of MMA striking (K1) are better than Cro Cop, Semmt and Hunt? or have trained boxing like AA with freddie Roach, yeah that sounds about right

also, where are these strikers that Silva and Machida have out classed, Franklin? Leben? Thiago Silva, please come back stronger than that

Silva was mounted by Travis Lutter, subbed by B level fighters but no one can handle him on the ground, sounds about right, lol

Every arguement you use against Fedor makes it worse for Machida and Silva, ou say he doesnt face great technical strikers, but he has faced better strikers than both, you say Silva cant be handled on the ground but has been mounted and subbed by lower level fighters, I think those guys have just as many holes as you say Fedor has

AA > any boxer type Silva or Machida has faced
Cro Cop > Any kickboxer Silva or Machida has faced
Same with Hunt and Semmy

Mark Coleman > any wrestler those 2 have faced

Nog and Arona > Any grappler those 2 have faced

Of course AA is a great striker and he has faced Fedor, so I didn't include him in that list. What does Anderson Silva fighting strikers have to do with anything? The difference is we know Silva is a capable and technical striker, so I don't need to see him face the worlds best strikers. It's like saying that Reggie Miller needs to compete in a 3-point contest, for what he has nothing to prove, we already know his 3 pointer is money. What strikers out there would be a favorite over Anderson? Not many right.

Now, you can say that he needs to fight more ground guys, that would make sense. Same with Machida, but strikers, that's irrelevant to the point.

But anyway being succesful in K1 doesn't always mean that you're going to be a great or technical striker in MMA. Mark Hunt charged in way too often leaving his chin exposed, and swung wildly at times. He was not a very technical striker, he had good/fast feet for his size, but other than that his standup game wasn't too impressive.

Cro Cop was not at all good at controlling the ring and his hands weren't great either. He has the best kicks I've ever seen, but his overall standup wasn't great.

Semmy, guys always just take him down right away and his takedown defense is pretty poor. When he is standing given his reach he should be a lot better than he is, so he doesn't compare to a lot of the guys that I listed.


Forget all of that though, let's break it down like this. Silva vs Fedor skill for skill, resumes aside:

Striking - Anderson Silva
Accuracy - Anderson Silva
Wrestling - Fedor
BJJ/Subs - Fedor, pretty slick for a big guy, but again Silva is still no slouch on the ground either.
Speed (relative) - I think Fedor is more heavy handed than quick, I could probably list more HW fighters that are faster than Fedor than I could list MW fighters who are faster than Silva.
Footwork - Anderson Silva
Power - Fedor

Maybe I'm jumping the gun on Machida, but I don't see why it's such a stretch that I like Silva over Fedor.

 

[CrimsonGhost56]

dont forget mirko is back in the ufc. time to see if he can turn into the old crocop. if he can i can see him heading to the top of the division and getting a title shot.