Eli Manning...

[Tailback U]

To me, the only legacy of greatness that is now cemented is Tom Coughlin.

I think he's the greatest coach of his era.

So if Gronkowski catches the hail mary that you keep talking about to discredit Eli, is Belicheck the greatest coach of his era??

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

Aaaahhh...the first few hours after SuperBowl when some people refuse to have perspective.

Anyone calling Eli a HOFer needs a refund for there Directv Sunday Ticket package, anr sell there TV because it's not doing them any good.

Sometime in the future there will be a video football game where you can have a fantasy tournament drawing from a pool of HOF players. Some guys will have Montana/Sanders ...Unitas/Payton.....some schmuck will end up with Eli Manning and Curtis Martin.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Without predicting/assuming any additional post-season success, figure Eli has (give or take a year) 5 seasons of football in his prime left.

If he averages 4,000 yards passing and 30 TDs a season....he'll end up a top 6-8 all-time QB in passing yards and a top 10 all-time QB in passing TDs.

Now do you look at that and say well, he's just a stat compiler over a decade-plus long career?

Also, how about Ben Roethsliberger who is almost in the same exact category (multiple time SB winner, has good stats over time, but is behind Brady, Peyton, Brees and Rodgers in terms of the best QBs of his era)?

Do you think Eli HAS to have ungodly type seasons (like Brady has had, or Brees and Rodgers and Peyton have had) to push HOF opinion over the edge?

I read this on ESPN earlier, and I'll try to find a link tomorrow, but basically if Eli hits his season averages for the next 3 years he will be a top 15 QB of all time in every single statistical category and at least 2 Super Bowl Rings.

When it's all said and done, he will be a hall of famer (assuming he hits his career averages for the next 3 years).

Hate all you want, but Eli is an elite QB.

I'm not really hating on Eli. Apparently some of you are missing the point.

But to be honest, i'm not all that impressed with where he finishes on all time stats lists, because as I said earlier, he has never led the league in anything (aside from interceptions) and has a very mediocre for his era 82.2 QB rating.

The big yardage and completion totals he ends up with will have plenty to do with the era he is playing in. For example, his 4900 yards this years looks impressive on the surface, but that total wasn't even good for top three this season! When you normalize those numbers and put them in context, well, you get the point. He's never been in serious conversation as the best or even one of the three or five best QB's of his time.

The point is, all things considered, a second ring should not magically put him over the top and into elite status or make him a lock HOF'er. But it will, because that's the goofy standard we hold QB's to.

So if Gronkowski catches the hail mary that you keep talking about to discredit Eli, is Belicheck the greatest coach of his era??

I'm not going to answer this, because it's pretty obvious you are completely lost and do not understand the point i've been trying to make. I never once tried to discredit Eli. In fact, my stance is the opposite. That final play of the game had NO EFFECT on where I stand with Eli, his performance, or his legacy. He wasn't even on the field!

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Aaaahhh...the first few hours after SuperBowl when some people refuse to have perspective.

Anyone calling Eli a HOFer needs a refund for there Directv Sunday Ticket package, anr sell there TV because it's not doing them any good.

Sometime in the future there will be a video football game where you can have a fantasy tournament drawing from a pool of HOF players. Some guys will have Montana/Sanders ...Unitas/Payton.....some schmuck will end up with Eli Manning and Curtis Martin.

BUT HE HAS TWO RINGS!!! TWWWOOOO RIIIINGGGS!!!

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

Tom Coughlin will coach the Giants literally for as long as he wants to, is able to (health wise).

Eli Manning is only 31-years old. He has at least 5 good years left.

Confidence in this team's future.

You literally don't know NY media. They said the same after his first SB win he was nearly fired twice since.
He's bought himself a season. Maybe two. After that its right back to the hotseat.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Oh, and by the way, Vinny Testaverde is Top 10 All Time in yards, completions, and TD's.

 

[Tailback U]

I'm not going to answer this, because it's pretty obvious you are completely lost and do not understand the point i've been trying to make. I never once tried to discredit Eli. In fact, my stance is the opposite. That final play of the game had NO EFFECT on where I stand with Eli, his performance, or his legacy. He wasn't even on the field!

Of course you're not going to answer it, because your argument is flawed.

You guys are haters. Eli isn't the flashiest QB but he gets it done.

Like I said, when it's all said and done he will be a top 10-15 QB of all time in every single statistical category and he has 2 Super Bowls as well.

What else do you want the guy to do?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Of course you're not going to answer it, because your argument is flawed.

You guys are haters. Eli isn't the flashiest QB but he gets it done.

Like I said, when it's all said and done he will be a top 10-15 QB of all time in every single statistical category and he has 2 Super Bowls as well.

What else do you want the guy to do?

My argument has gone over your head. I'm sorry you don't understand.

 

[Tailback U]

Oh, and by the way, Vinny Testaverde is Top 10 All Time in yards, completions, and TD's.

Vinny Testaverde's all time career record is also 93-123-1.

Seriously, you sound like an idiot right now. Quit being such a hater.

 

[Bear Pand]

I love Eli. Dude just doesnt give a fuck, but is able to reign it in better than other QBs like Romo.

Don't think he's HOF though.

 

[Tailback U]

My argument has gone over your head. I'm sorry you don't understand.

Please help me understand, then.

He will have the stats, wins, and rings.

What else does the guy have to do?

 

[EmpireWF]

What kind of conclusion to his career would make you change your mind on Eli's status as a HOFer?

I get the argument that because he was never among the best 4 or 5 QBs in any single season THUS FAR in his career gives you pause. It's the old eye test, with HOFers you should be able to hear the name and instantly say whether they are that kind of player.

Is there even a specific line to cross in that regard?

Just curious, among the QBs of this generation (lets say 21st century). We know surefire HOFers are Favre, Brady and Peyton. Drew Brees is right there because of the stats, too IMO. McNabb?

Is it fair to say guys like Rodgers, Big Ben and Eli, it's just too soon to say they're HOFers?

 

[Juggernaut]

I read this on ESPN earlier, and I'll try to find a link tomorrow, but basically if Eli hits his season averages for the next 3 years he will be a top 15 QB of all time in every single statistical category and at least 2 Super Bowl Rings.

When it's all said and done, he will be a hall of famer (assuming he hits his career averages for the next 3 years).

Hate all you want, but Eli is an elite QB.

try to find the link, i want a look at it

 

[Tailback U]

I think most people consider Ben Roethlisberger a potential Hall of Famer above Eli, right?

Guy has average career statistics but wins games and rings mostly because he has had arguably the best defense in the NFL backing him up throughout his entire career.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Vinny Testaverde's all time career record is also 93-123-1.

Seriously, you sound like an idiot right now. Quit being such a hater.

You've been an awful poster lately. dave level bad.

Nobody is "hating" on Eli you dolt, i'm "hating" on the idea that the Giants winning the game magically raises Eli to a new level. The fact is, if Gronk catches that ball, you are the prime example of somebody who would be on the opposite side of this debate (of which i've really not even taken a strong side, btw). People are essentially allowing a play that Eli had ZERO effect on, to determine where he stands in their mind. Incomplete, Eli has two rings and is a lock HOF'er. Complete, Eli came up short and he hasn't done enough. Same stats. Same performance. Same everything, except the score. Explain how that makes sense, beyond this over simplified concept of rings or bust??

Belichick & Brady are still great despite the result of that play, and Eli is still Eli...a good QB who is a level below elite.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Please help me understand, then.

He will have the stats, wins, and rings.

What else does the guy have to do?

I did not come into the thread to make a HOF argument for or against Eli. I came into the thread to shoot down this ridiculous idea that a second ring should wrap up a HOF spot for him.

You know, like the thread topic and OP suggests.

 

[EmpireWF]

I'm not a big historical NFL guy so this type of talk is interesting to me.

 

[Tailback U]

try to find the link, i want a look at it

It was an SI article by Peter King, not ESPN.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1194177/2/index.htm

The NFC Championship Game had been over for about 70 minutes, and the winning coach and quarterback were 30 feet apart in Candlestick Park's postage stamp of a locker room. Tom Coughlin, the rigid, relentlessly demanding Northerner. Eli Manning, the easygoing Southerner. They came to the Giants in 2004, together but worlds apart. Now they're so close they can almost finish each other's sentences.

"Eli's just so ... so ..." said Coughlin, in his boxers and blue Giants undershirt, searching for the right word. "Reliable. Totally reliable. Trustworthy. Smart. Tremendously hardworking. Consistent as the day is long. What I love about him is, I know what he's doing 365 days a year. He's doing something that will help us win football games."

That's not just the perfect quarterback for the 65-year-old Coughlin. It's the perfect reflection of himself.

This partnership of coach and player reached a new peak on Sunday in the dank, misty San Francisco gloaming. Manning dropped back to pass 65 times, more than in any playoff game in the 87-year history of the New York franchise, and was pressured or hit on 23 of those. (He threw 58 passes, completing 32 for 316 yards, was sacked six times and scrambled once.) Interceptions and lost fumbles? Zero. In 90 offensive plays, in fact, the Giants didn't turn the ball over once. Manning's counterpart, Alex Smith, wasn't nearly as good, and his 49ers teammates weren't nearly as reliable. Two mistakes—a muffed punt and a fumble—by backup return man Kyle Williams handed New York 10 points in the last 17 minutes. The 20--17 overtime win sent the Giants to Indianapolis to face the Patriots in Super Bowl XLVI on Feb. 5, a rematch of the David Tyree Velcro-catch game of four years ago and a chance for Bill Belichick and Tom Brady to avenge the ruination of their perfect season and their only Super Bowl loss.

Not to mention: Peyton Manning's brother versus Peyton's archrival in the House That Peyton Built. With Peyton most likely in a luxury box, watching enviously, we assume, but with immense pride in his little brother.

Of course, with Eli, as with Peyton, so much is in the preparation. That's what they learned in years of watching their father, Archie, bring home game film at night during his 14-year NFL career. Games are won on Wednesdays and Thursdays and Fridays, not just on Sundays.

Two days before the conference title game, back in New Jersey, Manning got his receivers together for their weekly hourlong meeting—just the quarterback and his receiving corps, no coaches. As the meeting wound down Manning delivered his message, what he thought was important for the week. "In this game," Manning said, "we've all got to be patient. With this defense we're facing, nothing will come easy. Their lifeline is turnovers, so you've got to protect the football. Punting's fine. Just don't give them any points, and we'll have a chance to win it at the end."

Coughlin-speak. When the coach was told on Sunday night of Manning's message to his receivers, he smiled as if he'd just won the lottery. "Isn't that something?" he said.

The night before, Coughlin had gathered his team in a ballroom at the Hyatt near the San Francisco airport for his pregame speech. He brought up the three former Giants who were honorary captains for the game—tight end Mark Bavaro, defensive end Michael Strahan and guard Rich Seubert, tone-setters for Super Bowl champion teams past and recent. "All three of those guys would give anything to be playing in this game," Coughlin said with customary passion. "But their time was then. Their time has passed. Your time is now. I can promise you: This is a game you'll be telling your grandchildren about in 50 years."

If you like defense and a quarterback playing up to the Manning family name, yes, this will be a game you'll remember for a long time. Bitterly if you're a Niner, euphorically if you're a Giant. San Francisco proved again that it will be a force in the coming years, with or without soon-to-be free agent Smith under center. The Niners' quarterback threw two beautiful balls to tight end Vernon Davis, for 73- and 28-yard touchdowns that left San Francisco up 14--10 after a mucky three quarters. Offensive coordinator Greg Roman, one of the league's top head coaching candidates, ran unusual packages to try to get something going. The coolest: A 930-pound triangle of blockers on the right side of the line—tackle Joe Staley and defensive linemen Justin Smith and Isaac Sopoaga—to clear a path for 233-pound back Anthony Dixon on the first series of the fourth quarter. Amazingly, the Giants clogged the lane against that formation, allowing only three yards on two carries and forcing San Francisco to punt.

But the Niners' big story was their fourth-ranked defense. Again, 3--4 ends Justin Smith and Ray McDonald, along with situation pass rusher Aldon Smith, were brilliant, combining for 4½ sacks. Justin Smith, for the second straight week, plowed the left tackle back into the quarterback, pulling Manning down with one brute-strength yank. Linebackers NaVorro Bowman and Patrick Willis (21 tackles, 1½ sacks, one pass batted down) made a similar impact. After the game Manning had a huge red welt on the front side of his left shoulder but, despite the pounding, walked with no apparent pain. "That's just one of the best defenses in the league, from the first play to the last," he said. "They stop the run and get pressure."

Manning found his two faves, Victor Cruz and Hakeem Nicks, 11 times in the first half, so he began to look elsewhere in the second. "Did you see that throw to Manningham?" Coughlin asked. He meant the touchdown pass to Mario Manningham with 8:34 to play that gave the Giants a 17--14 lead. The story behind it is telling. Manningham hadn't caught a pass yet, and Niners starting cornerback Tarell Brown was out of the game with a head and neck injury, leaving Carlos Rogers and Chris Culliver, the top two remaining corners, on Cruz and Nicks. San Francisco's last corner, Tramaine Brock, a second-year player from NAIA Belhaven University in Jackson, Miss., was on Manningham, and Manning saw Brock give the receiver too much cushion on third-and-15 from the San Francisco 17. Manningham ran a deep post and zing!—the perfect strike, over safety Dashon Goldson and under safety Reggie Smith, hit Manningham just as Brock wrapped him up four yards deep in the end zone. Classic, smart play by offensive coordinator Kevin Gilbride, and by a quarterback who sees what's going on in the game and targets accordingly.

Manning took two brutal shots late in the fourth quarter, one on a three-man sandwich just after he released, but didn't need much in overtime after linebacker Jacquian Williams stripped Kyle Williams—son of White Sox general manager Ken Williams—5½ minutes in. Five plays and 11 yards later Lawrence Tynes kicked the winning field goal, just as he had four years ago after Corey Webster's overtime interception of the Packers' Brett Favre led to the Giants' NFC title.

New York has 16 players on the 53-man roster who were on the '07 team. Most of the coaching staff is the same. But ask the veterans, and they'll tell you the boss man has mellowed—and that enabled this team to achieve. The Coughlin of old bordered on the militaristic. When he took the Jaguars' job in the franchise's first season, 1995, he instituted what he called a concentration line: When you stepped over the line onto the practice field, you had to transform from whatever you were into a football-thinking automaton. He set the clocks ahead so people would get used to Coughlin Time—always early. He hated it when players mouthed off to the media.

Last Friday, though, Coughlin joked with the press corps like he was in a golf foursome in July. And now when his players yak to reporters, he just rolls his eyes. Case in point: Before the division-round game against the Packers, second-year defensive end Jason Pierre-Paul said with confidence that the Giants would go to Green Bay and win because they were the better team. Coughlin didn't like it, but with the help of long-time Giants senior vice president of communications Pat Hanlon—who advises Coughlin on when he should worry about what players say (rarely)—the coach has come to ignore such quotes. Or tweets.

"I pick my spots now," Coughlin said. "There's no question I've changed in that regard. In this day and age, with media and public access to players, they're available to talk so much more. And I think players feel like they have to respond to everything. So Jason's euphoric in our locker room after we beat Atlanta, and he's asked if he thinks we're going to beat Green Bay, and he says yes. He's not flaring on the Packers; he's just excited about his own team. I try to make a point when a player does that, you know, like, 'Words can have an impact you don't intend.' But I don't get mad. After we beat the Packers he came up to me and said, 'Coach, they tried to get me to do it again about the 49ers, but I wouldn't do it!' I loved it.

"I think I understand the world today, society today, a little bit better. You grow and you change every year."

He and Manning are growing and changing, moving into heady territory, and one more win this season will put both into the discussion for Canton. Coughlin is one regular-season victory behind Hall of Famer Marv Levy on the alltime list, with 142; Coughlin already has as many playoff wins (11), plus a Super Bowl title, which eluded the longtime Bills coach. As for Manning, a second Super Bowl victory will put him in a category from which every quarterback (except Jim Plunkett) has made the Hall. Three more seasons of his career statistical averages would put him in the top 15 of all the major passing lists at age 33. Eli in Canton? Before, you'd think, Sure, that could happen—maybe as Peyton's presenter. A win in Indianapolis on Feb. 5 will change that.

Coughlin has always been seen as a lesser branch on the Bill Parcells coaching tree, compared with Belichick. But 30 more regular-season wins would tie him with Parcells, and there's nothing he'd rather do for the foreseeable future than coach.

The immediate future, though, revolves around Belichick and Brady again. Coughlin and Manning are 2--1 against the Pats in the last five seasons and have outscored New England 76--72 in those three games. Brady and Eli are friendly but they've never had a conversation about that showdown in Glendale, Ariz., four years ago, a game Brady avoids watching. The Giants harassed him all night and beat the 18--0 Patriots 17--14 in Super Bowl XLII. If revenge is on Brady's mind, Eli wouldn't know it.

"We talk," Eli said, "but not about that. I wouldn't bring that up."

That's O.K. Between now and Feb. 5, enough people will.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Please help me understand, then.

He will have the stats, wins, and rings.

What else does the guy have to do?

His stats are not HOF level impressive.

Admit it, you are basing his HOF credentials on one factor....RINGS.

 

[Tailback U]

I did not come into the thread to make a HOF argument for or against Eli. I came into the thread to shoot down this ridiculous idea that a second ring should wrap up a HOF spot for him.

You know, like the thread topic and OP suggests.

You're still not answering the question.

What else does the guy have to do to prove to the great W2B that he is an elite QB?