Saints Defense maintained a Bounty Program

[FedEx227]

Well, the NFL should probably ban Payton from the league. How can you let him coach again if this is true?

(Not even directly bounty-related)

 

[Senser81]

Tried to sift through the BS in this thread...its terrible.

The NFL has always taken a tough stance against bounties. Its too easy for one team to injure an opposing player if thats the intent. Jerry Glanville was notorious for this. When he was D-coordinator for the 1978 Falcons, he had LB Robert Pennywell slam Roger Staubach to the turf about 10 seconds after the play was over. Staubach was literally knocked out and did not return (Dallas still won, because Danny White came in). Glanville's Oilers teams were equally bad at cheap-shotting and maiming.

I remember when Charles Martin of the Packers body-slammed Jim McMahon on an incredibly dirty hit. Martin was suspended for the entire season, partly due to the fact that he had worn a "hit list" towel with McMahon's number on it. So, there wasn't even a "bounty", but there did appear to be intent to injure, so Martin was suspended for the year. I think that was the longest suspension for an "on-field" incident in NFL history. For those of you claiming this bounty stuff is no big deal, then you need to brush up on your history.

I hate to play the "did you ever play football??" card, but to those of you claiming that you can't have intent to injure while playing within the rules are insane. Hitting with the crown of your helmet, blindside blocks below the knees, etc. If you want to hurt someone "within the rules", its pretty easy. If you can't, then you are terrible at football. Example, in the Denver-Pittsburgh playoff Eric Decker caught a short pass. Instead of tackling Decker like a normal person, James Harrison took a cheap shot by throwing his body into Decker's knee. Decker blew out his knee.

Another example is the old Niners teams of the 80's. Their O-line was notorious for cut blocking. In the Super Bowl against Denver, Karl Mecklenburg took exception at getting cut blocked from behind as the play was on the other side of the field 30 yards away. Legal? Yes. Cheap shot? Yes. Intent to injure? Yes. Ironically, while Denver was pissed, a few years later they hired the coach responsible for the aggressive cut-blocking (mike shanahan), and then they were the team that everyone complained about.

 

[Senser81]

I apologize to zoneblitz for actually posting content in this thread. I understand his groan of me.

 

[ZoneBlitz]

Tried to sift through the BS in this post...its terrible.

The NFL has always taken a tough stance against bounties. Its too easy for one team to injure an opposing player if thats the intent. Jerry Glanville was notorious for this. When he was D-coordinator for the 1978 Falcons, he had LB Robert Pennywell slam Roger Staubach to the turf about 10 seconds after the play was over. Staubach was literally knocked out and did not return (Dallas still won, because Danny White came in). Glanville's Oilers teams were equally bad at cheap-shotting and maiming.

I remember when Charles Martin of the Packers body-slammed Jim McMahon on an incredibly dirty hit. Martin was suspended for the entire season, partly due to the fact that he had worn a "hit list" towel with McMahon's number on it. So, there wasn't even a "bounty", but there did appear to be intent to injure, so Martin was suspended for the year. I think that was the longest suspension for an "on-field" incident in NFL history. For those of you claiming this bounty stuff is no big deal, then you need to brush up on your history.

Irrelevant as those were blatanty illegal hits.

Another example is the old Niners teams of the 80's. Their O-line was notorious for cut blocking. In the Super Bowl against Denver, Karl Mecklenburg took exception at getting cut blocked from behind as the play was on the other side of the field 30 yards away. Legal? Yes. Cheap shot? Yes. Intent to injure? Yes. Ironically, while Denver was pissed, a few years later they hired the coach responsible for the aggressive cut-blocking (mike shanahan), and then they were the team that everyone complained about.

The rules have changed greatly from the 80's, most of what was cheap back then is illegal now.

I hate to play the "did you ever play football??" card, but to those of you claiming that you can't have intent to injure while playing within the rules are insane.

You're wrong.

Hitting with the crown of your helmet,

not within the rules

blindside blocks below the knees, etc.

not within the rules

If you want to hurt someone "within the rules", its pretty easy. If you can't, then you are terrible at football.

You're wrong.

Example, in the Denver-Pittsburgh playoff Eric Decker caught a short pass. Instead of tackling Decker like a normal person, James Harrison took a cheap shot by throwing his body into Decker's knee. Decker blew out his knee.

There are TONS of tackles at the knees, and they rarely result in injury, that was just one isolated incident.

 

[KNUBB]

The Saints owner came out and gave support to his front office and Peyton.

He's not canning any of the big fish. :facepalm:

Said this pages ago. Don't know why you're acting all surprised.

 

[Senser81]

Tried to sift through the BS in this post...its terrible.

At least my BS was contained to one neat and tidy posting. Your BS was splashed throughout 43 pages of postings.

Irrelevant as those were blatanty illegal hits.

Zoneblitz missed the point, even when it was overtly spelled out? GASP!

I don't remember claiming the Pennywell and Martin hits weren't blatantly illegal. The point of Pennywell is that if a team wants to injure someone, they have the ability to do so. The point of Martin is that even when there is a hint of 'bounty', 'hit list', or intent to injure, the NFL has taken a hard-line stance.

The rules have changed greatly from the 80's, most of what was cheap back then is illegal now.

Really? Cut blocking is illegal? Mike Shanahan coached the Broncos in the 1980's, and his last day as an NFL head coach was in 1989?

You're wrong.



not within the rules



not within the rules



You're wrong.



There are TONS of tackles at the knees, and they rarely result in injury, that was just one isolated incident.

I lumped all these together, because they all smell like ass. The "You're wrong" comment is laughable. Have you ever played football before? And you seem to think that chop blocking has been deemed illegal....HUH? Have you ever SEEN football played before??

And LOL at your last comment. The one thing that all players can't stand is getting their knees taken out. Your idiocy is sickening. Stop.

 

[IamMedellin]

the Saints should send Peyton manning and the Colts a fruit basket

 

[Tailback U]

Good post, senser, but i think Harrison went low on Decker because he didn't want to go high on him and get another helmet penalty. He was actually trying to not get decker because the league has told him to stop going high.

Another question - if the NFL has punished players pretty severely in the past, a year long suspension is pretty severe, and the hit list / bounty idea still exists, do you really think they will be able to get rid of that type of attitude? If so how or why not?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Having gamblers directly tied to the performance of a professional sports team seems like a non-story for sure.

But, but, bounties have existed for years! This is a mans game! As long as its good, clean hits, who cares! Non story! Pussy!

 

[FedEx227]

But, but, bounties have existed for years! This is a mans game! As long as its good, clean hits, who cares! Non story! Pussy!

Why is this aspect of the story so under covered? You had a gambler who hung around the players and team and was seen in photos wearing Saints gear on their sideline putting money in the pot for bounties.

If this happened in baseball... you know gamblers affecting the way the game is played (aka the first 50 years of organized baseball), it'd be a bigger national story, no?

I mean let's separate the issue that NFL fans can't fathom the legalities of being given monetary benefits to intentionally hurt someone (whether it's "part of the game" or not - hint - it's not), but we have a gambler running around with a team in a sport that despite it's best attempt is so obviously tied to gambling. I just find it funny how little it's being talked about.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Why is this aspect of the story so under covered? You had a gambler who hung around the players and team and was seen in photos wearing Saints gear on their sideline putting money in the pot for bounties.

If this happened in baseball... you know gamblers affecting the way the game is played (aka the first 50 years of organized baseball), it'd be a bigger national story, no?

I mean let's separate the issue that NFL fans can't fathom the legalities of being given monetary benefits to intentionally hurt someone (whether it's "part of the game" or not - hint - it's not), but we have a gambler running around with a team in a sport that despite it's best attempt is so obviously tied to gambling. I just find it funny how little it's being talked about.

Tremendous post.

Certain people in this thread need to read that last paragraph over and over until they get it.

 

[Senser81]

Another question - if the NFL has punished players pretty severely in the past, a year long suspension is pretty severe, and the hit list / bounty idea still exists, do you really think they will be able to get rid of that type of attitude? If so how or why not?

How would the NFL get rid of an "attitude"?

 

[Senser81]

I mean let's separate the issue that NFL fans can't fathom the legalities of being given monetary benefits to intentionally hurt someone (whether it's "part of the game" or not - hint - it's not), but we have a gambler running around with a team in a sport that despite it's best attempt is so obviously tied to gambling. I just find it funny how little it's being talked about.

The reason we aren't talking about it is because Zoneblitz hasn't jumped in yet with "gamblers give money to football players all the time" and pointing to zero specific instances of this happening in the past. Give it time.

 

[Tailback U]

How would the NFL get rid of an "attitude"?

Exactly. They can't. So this will continue to exist. They've punished
It before and nothing changed because there are players
Who are bred to play with that type of attitude.

 

[ZoneBlitz]

At least my BS was contained to one neat and tidy posting. Your BS was splashed throughout 43 pages of postings.

I didnt jump in this thread until the last few pages.

Zoneblitz missed the point, even when it was overtly spelled out? GASP!

I don't remember claiming the Pennywell and Martin hits weren't blatantly illegal. The point of Pennywell is that if a team wants to injure someone, they have the ability to do so. The point of Martin is that even when there is a hint of 'bounty', 'hit list', or intent to injure, the NFL has taken a hard-line stance.

I dont remember claiming that players dont have the ability to injure someone. My point has been that its difficult to intentionally injure someone within the rules. This has been corraborated by former NFL players.

Really? Cut blocking is illegal? Mike Shanahan coached the Broncos in the 1980's, and his last day as an NFL head coach was in 1989?

You didnt say "cut blocking", you said BLINDSIDE cut blocking, which i believe is illegal.

I lumped all these together, because they all smell like ass. The "You're wrong" comment is laughable. Have you ever played football before?

I thought you werent gonna use that card? And yes i have played football, and many other former players agree with me, including former NFL players.

And LOL at your last comment. The one thing that all players can't stand is getting their knees taken out. Your idiocy is sickening.

When did i claim otherwise? What does that even have to do with my point?

 

[Senser81]

Exactly. They can't. So this will continue to exist. They've punished
It before and nothing changed because there are players
Who are bred to play with that type of attitude.

No, not "exactly". Im asking you, since you have the expectation of the nfl legislating attitude, how would this be done? Do companies fire employees for not liking their boss?

 

[FedEx227]

The reason we aren't talking about it is because Zoneblitz hasn't jumped in yet with "gamblers give money to football players all the time" and pointing to zero specific instances of this happening in the past. Give it time.

I'm getting nervous over here.

 

[Senser81]

I didnt jump in this thread until the last few pages.



I dont remember claiming that players dont have the ability to injure someone. My point has been that its difficult to intentionally injure someone within the rules. This has been corraborated by former NFL players.



You didnt say "cut blocking", you said BLINDSIDE cut blocking, which i believe is illegal.



I thought you werent gonna use that card? And yes i have played football, and many other former players agree with me, including former NFL players.



When did i claim otherwise? What does that even have to do with my point?

So much wrong with this post its hard to put it down in a logical manner. I'll try...in chronological order:

1) I don't remember claiming that you said players don't have the ability to injure someone. Can't add much more, because I don't know WTF you are talking about. I gave two examples, and I gave my reasons for doing so.

2) Its legal to cut-block from behind/clip at the LOS in the interior line. Its been legal since the beginning of football. I guess its a "now you know" for you.

3) You keep claiming that former players "corroborate" that its "difficult" to intentionally injure someone within the rules. HUH? How is that possible? What are they "corroborating"? How can one former NFL player judge another former NFL player's intent? Its like saying "no white people commit crimes", and I've corroborated this by speaking to many white people. Its beyond retarded. Are you trying to say that players only get injured on illegal hits? If not, then how are you judging intent? If you ask me "well, how are YOU judging intent?", my response would be that players get injured all the time on 'legal' hits that are highly questionable. Remember Warren Sapp dislocating Chad Clifton's hip?

Anyways, as usual, all logic and all evidence proves you wrong. Players get injured on legal hits. Through the years, the NFL has legislated against hits that are delivered with intent to injure. Night Train Lane's clothesline, Deacon Jones' headslap, Kimo von Oelhoffen diving into Carson Palmer's knee, Roy Williams' horse collar, etc.

Also, if players can't intentionally injure on legal hits, then how do we have 'dirty' players? Andre Waters was known to always blow out knees. Legal, yes. Dirty, yes. Conrad Dobler was the master of the blindside chop block. Legal, yes. Dirty, yes. Did James Harrison all of the sudden become a dirty player because his head shots were deemed "illegal"? Does that make his previous legal headshots 'clean'?

The leaps of logic that you have taken are astounding. Its almost as if you aren't using any logic at all.

 

[NWSaint]

lol.

 

[Tailback U]

No, not "exactly". Im asking you, since you have the expectation of the nfl legislating attitude, how would this be done? Do companies fire employees for not liking their boss?

You're completely missing the point. I don't have the expectation of the NFL legislating attitude, my entire point is the contrary, actually.

These punishments do nothing to change the way certain people play the game. This thread is way too fucking long and EsPn had spent way too much talking about it. This isn't the first time guys are getting in trouble for this and it won't be the last.

Why this seems to be getting so much more attention than anything else in the history of sports is beyond me.