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Saints Defense maintained a Bounty Program

I guess my problem is that you and others (TBU) assume that all NFL players are actively trying to injure each other.

I just heard Darren Woodson and Tedy Bruschi talking on SportsCenter about how their intent as players were to hit hard, and if an opponent was injured as a result, that was a byproduct of the game but NOT their intent as defenders. They went on to say that playing with the intent to injure is wrong, and completely unacceptable (and thus, what the Saints were doing is also wrong and unacceptable).

Yes, you will have rogue weirdos like Bart Scott and others who were quoted in this thread, but for the most part, i'll keep listening to articulate, intelligent players like Woodson and Bruschi who know the difference between hard hits and intent to injure, and know how to convey themselves without the ridiculous MURDER DEATH KILL hyperbole of TailbackU.

NFL players are not trying to injure each other. Sorry if that blows up your idealistic vision of what football is, but it's the truth.

Yeah, and I want to eat the foods I want but not get fat. But one things leads to another, so I control myself. Saying "I want to hit hard, but not injure anyone" is the biggest oxymoron I've ever heard.

And actually, it was Tedy Bruschi who I was referring to when I mentioned players going after injuries at the bottom of a pile. So I like his TV face.

EDIT: In fact, here he is :yao:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...schi-says-hed-target-arian-fosters-hamstring/
 
If Troy Polamalu is playing a game and hammers a receiver crossing the middle, and he gets hurt....it's part of playing in the NFL.

If Flozell Adams is playing and chop blocks a defensive lineman, he's a dirty mfer who deserves to be flagged and fined.

If Ray Lewis sees a runningback during a game limping in and out of the huddle, then proceeds to specifically target his legs with hits...it's football.

If Tony Romo is playing with a busted left hand and defenders are going for the hand, it's football. It's a weakness and will be targeted. Now if after a hit, guys are stomping on the hand or getting him in a wristlock or some shit, that should be penalized.

What changes it for me is when people around the team put specific bounties on injuring players. That's shady in its own right before you even bring up the fact it violates the CBA, skirts the salary cap and potentially opens up the league to lawsuits. Such bounties are not what football is about.

Maybe it's a fine line, but that's the line.

LOl what?? If Tony Romos hand is hurt and players are targeting it is ok unless there is a bounty involved?

What world do you live in where money forms your personal beliefs on what is ok and what isn't? Your ethics are entirely based on the money aspect of all of this, it's down right retarded.

The Saints were fined for 3 hits on Favre. All were big hits that happened during a football play. None were in piles or targeting specific limbs. So why are you not ok with them?
 
LOl what?? If Tony Romos hand is hurt and players are targeting it is ok unless there is a bounty involved?

What world do you live in where money forms your personal beliefs on what is ok and what isn't? Your ethics are entirely based on the money aspect of all of this, it's down right retarded.

These are grown men. If they want to step on the field and play with a blatant weakness, that's on them. You cannot fault a defender for wanting to take advantage of that. They'd be stupid not to.
 
These are grown men. If they want to step on the field and play with a blatant weakness, that's on them. You cannot fault a defender for wanting to take advantage of that. They'd be stupid not to.

LOL but it's not ok if they want to take advantage of an injury if they are receiving cash to do so?

Ok so if they want to go after a player with an injured limb it is totally fine to target said player's injury. UNLESS they are getting paid to do it.

Makes total sense now, thank you for clearing that up. I will no longer accept money when I am out to hurt people. I will just do it for fun so guys like you think I have great morals.
 
Here's my point.

Let's say bounties are allowed in the NFC South but not in the AFC East.

If you found that bounties significantly increase the amount of injuries compared to the AFC East then I'd say this is a huge deal and it deserves all the attention it is getting.

Fact is, though, that the Saints' bounty program showed no significant increase in injuries when compared to teams that weren't implementing a bounty program.

Does it need to be banned? Yes. Do people need to be punished? Yes. Should it be allowed? Hell no.

It's not going to significanty increase or decrease injuries by implementing them or removing them. That is the ultimate goal, right?

Bucky has a point. Why are we so caught up in the idea of a bounty program if it's not the main reason as to why players are really getting injured.

I'll tell you why - because it looks bad. That's all there is to it. People get all up in arms about this kind of stuff because they are "disgusted" by it and it's an "outrage" and blah blah blah when facts show it doesn't even change anything about the game's physical nature or injury chances.
 
Here's my point.

Let's say bounties are allowed in the NFC South but not in the AFC East.

If you found that bounties significantly increase the amount of injuries compared to the AFC East then I'd say this is a huge deal and it deserves all the attention it is getting.

Fact is, though, that the Saints' bounty program showed no significant increase in injuries when compared to teams that weren't implementing a bounty program.

Does it need to be banned? Yes. Do people need to be punished? Yes. Should it be allowed? Hell no.

It's not going to significanty increase or decrease injuries by implementing them or removing them. That is the ultimate goal, right?

Bucky has a point. Why are we so caught up in the idea of a bounty program if it's not the main reason as to why players are really getting injured.

I'll tell you why - because it looks bad. That's all there is to it. People get all up in arms about this kind of stuff because they are "disgusted" by it and it's an "outrage" and blah blah blah when facts show it doesn't even change anything about the game's physical nature or injury chances.

Where are these "facts" that the Saints bounty program has not caused injuries above and beyond what would have normally occured?
 
Where are these "facts" that the Saints bounty program has not caused injuries above and beyond what would have normally occured?

Where are the facts that they did?

Surely, by now, someone has gone through all of their defensive plays and has collected data on how many players the Saints injured. They have something like 18,000 documents collected over the 3 year investigation. Hopefully that's one thing they've done otherwise I don't know what the hell they've been doing.

If it hasn't been released yet for some reason, and I'd love to see it, then we can only assume that they didn't injure more players than other teams because they are innocent until proven guilty.

If they released evidence that the Saints did in fact injure more players than any other team in the league and by a significant amount then I lose and you win and I was wrong and you were right.

I have no problem being wrong. I've never said a bounty program is right, I've just been saying that I don't think it really has an affect on a player's attitude and his desire to inflict pain on other players in the game.
 
Be careful here.

Why? They aren't guilty of injuring more players than other teams, therefore, they are innocent...for now.

Obviously, that can change. I'd really like to see some statistical data that's been compiled on their "dirty" hits, penalties, injuries, etc. They are guilty of implementing a bounty program, no doubt, but that's not what I'm arguing.
 
The fuck went on in here?

Jesus Christ.

ZB, TBU, bucky, and Dspyder should be banned for a day for nothing more than stupidity.

Im sorry, I thought this was America!

RandyMarsh.jpg
 
Why? They aren't guilty of injuring more players than other teams, therefore, they are innocent...for now.

Obviously, that can change. I'd really like to see some statistical data that's been compiled on their "dirty" hits, penalties, injuries, etc. They are guilty of implementing a bounty program, no doubt, but that's not what I'm arguing.

If they had a bounty system in place, that means every penalty, every bordeline hit, every fine, has to come into question. THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE BOUNTIES.

You keep saying that they didnt cause more injuries than they would have normally, but youbdont know that, and you never will. Having a bounty system in place opens you up to that suspicion, becase the bounties arent there for shits and giggles.

I'll turn your argument around on you. Gregg Williams knows more about football players than you ever will. He seems to think bounties work. Your argument is shit.
 
Meet The Convicted Felon Who Defrauded The NFL, And Funded The Saints Bounty Program

Meet The Convicted Felon Who Defrauded The NFL, And Funded The Saints Bounty Program

Meet The Convicted Felon Who Defrauded The NFL, Made Reggie Bush Ineligible, And Funded The Saints’ Bounty Program

http://deadspin.com/5890499/meet-th...4b-UA-142218-13&utm_medium=email#viewcomments

If the NFL were to punish every team that ran a bounty program, there are very few teams they wouldn't have to punish. That's becoming obvious in the wake of the Saints' bounty scandal, and in the parade of stories making clear that money is going to be a large factor in the league's investigation. There may be no specific prohibitions on intent to injure, but the NFL can and will legislate from existing CBA rules on salary cap circumvention. The league (and the IRS) can come down as hard as it wants on players being paid for performance under the table, and you can expect them to come down hard when some of those payments were coming from a twice-convicted felon with a history of football scandals.

Michael Ornstein is the name to know. As first reported by CBS's Mike Freeman, Ornstein—a close friend and confidant of Sean Payton—Ornstein on at least four occasions pledged his own money to the Saints' defense's bounty fund. In 2009, $10,000 toward knocking an opposing quarterback out of the game. In 2011, two separate contributions to targeting the quarterback. And on at least one other occasion, Ornstein pledged his money in an email to Payton, which spelled out the details of the bounty program.

The NFL knows this because it has that email, a highly incriminating paper trail that makes it impossible for Payton to argue his innocence, or for the Saints to claim the bounty never left the locker room. It might be the single most damaging piece of evidence, based solely on Ornstein's history.

Once upon a time, Ornstein was an NFL executive in charge of marketing. That was until he attempted to defraud the league out of $350,000. Ornstein conspired to submit fraudulent invoices to Los Angeles based manufacturers, pocketing the money and never providing the NFL with the merchandise they were led to believe they had purchased. He pleaded guilty to mail fraud, and served four months home confinement, five years of probation, and paid the NFL $160,000 in restitution.

Ornstein resurfaced a decade later, as the marketing agent who represented Reggie Bush when he turned pro. It soon came out that Ornstein had been a central figure in providing Bush with improper benefits while at USC, as Ornstein competed with eventual whistleblower Lloyd Lake for Bush's services. According to a Yahoo investigation, Ornstein had paid for airfare, limousine service and luxury hotel stays for Bush's family, as well as a weekly "allowance" of at least $1,500.

Despite this, Ornstein followed Bush to New Orleans and quickly became a member of the Saints' inner circle. The Times-Picayune reported that,

while not an official employee of the Saints, Ornstein has been a fixture at practices, games and in the locker room since the Saints drafted Bush in April 2006. He often wears team gear and is a regular presence on the sideline and on the field during practices.

Payton devoted a chapter in his recent book about how valuable an asset Ornstein was to the team during its Super Bowl championship season. Ornstein was a point man for the Saints during their trip to Miami for the Super Bowl, arranging everything from daily gifts for players and their wives to strategically placed Saints billboards throughout the city. Ornstein also helps Payton with business arrangements outside of football, including the book deal and a movie script that Payton was working on last year.
It was during that Super Bowl season when Ornstein was allegedly offered 10 grand to injure opposing quarterbacks. The next year he was in trouble again, being brought up on federal fraud charges for two separate schemes. One involved selling trading cards with swatches of NFL jerseys, with Ornstein obtaining fake certificates of authenticity to claim the jerseys were game-worn. The other involved scalping Super Bowl tickets purchased from people who received them at face value from their employers—in many cases, NFL players. To cover their tracks, Ornstein rigged up fake forms indicating the Super Bowl tickets were going to charity.

Ornstein cooperated with investigators and was sentenced to eight months in prison. He began serving his time last March; it's not clear if he was still incarcerated when he was emailing Sean Payton to fund the bounty.

Here he is at Saints training camp. Here he is posing with Sean Payton and Drew Brees at a charity event. Here he is celebrating on the field with the team when the Saints won the Super Bowl. Mike Ornstein, never a Saints employee but exactly the sort of hanger-on you expect attached to a shady college program, was given an all-access pass in New Orleans for six seasons. If Roger Goodell needs any justification to bring the hammer down on the Saints, he need look no farther than the company they keep on the sidelines.
 
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