Saints Defense maintained a Bounty Program

[bucky]

So do you have an issue with putting out mafia style injury hits on players, or not?

I mean, ffs, forget the god damn rule book and answer that question. What is with you? Between this and the Braun thread, I question your ability to formulate any sort of critical thought or use of common sense.

I had plenty of common sense in the Braun thread. Arbitrator rules that protocol wasn't adhered to. If that's true then the evidence can't be used, until someone legally shows that policy was adhered to and that the arbitrator was initially wrong in his ruling. Sorry, this is common sense.

As far as coaches paying players to injury other players. I'm against it, but I don't think it's nearly as big a deal as you do. Unethical, I think so. But really, if the hits are clean/legal hits, the outcome is the same as if there were no bounty. Any illegal hits should be handled by the officials and the NFL. And I don't mind harsher punishment for illegal hits. More than fines, do suspensions. I'm just not going over the top ape shit like you are over the bounty stuff. I'm more concerned about the hits being legal, and if there are "diry legal" hits, change the rules to make them illegal.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I didn't say injure. I said hurt. There is a huge difference.

If I hit somebody as hard as I can and they happen to get injured because I dislocate their shoulder, that really isn't my fault.

If I take out somebody's legs from behind them, like a chop block, then that is dirty and cheap and definitely illegal and all of my fault.

This thread is about a coach encouraging players to injure people, through the incentive of cash, so nobody cares about your high school exploits or how many shoulders you dislocated.

But you've already established, that like Gregg Williams, you are a creep who has no issue with putting out Tony Soprano hits on people's health, so again, my bad for even engaging you in this.

 

[bucky]

Are you unable to draw this simple distinction?

I can draw the simple distinction, I just think if the NFL has the right rules in place, then functionally, the distinction becomes irrelevant. There is some moral/ethical relevance, but not functional...If the right rules are in place. If there are dirty legal hits, change the rules.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I can draw the simple distinction, I just think if the NFL has the right rules in place, then functionally, the distinction becomes irrelevant. There is some moral/ethical relevance, but not functional...If the right rules are in place. If there are dirty legal hits, change the rules.

What the hell are you rambling about?

Who cares whether the hits are legal or not? Williams is offering money to players to injure people, which makes him a mental case. And by doing so, the mindset of the players willing to take him up on this changes, and they are far more likely to do something dirty to meet the incentive. Whether the hits meet some rulebook standard of legality shouldn't, and doesn't, matter. The fact you are unable to connect these dots is baffling to me.

Here, and in the Braun thread, you have this odd habit of making everything black or white. It's either a broken law/rule, or not. Well, technically, you didn't break a rule, so it's ok! I mean, do you conduct your life in this manner? Do you commonly disregard ethics and morals in deference of shitty technicalities?

 

[bucky]

Who cares whether the hits are legal or not?

Everybody should care what hits are legal or illegal. If a hit is dirty and legal the rules should be changed to make the hit illegal.

Williams is offering money to players to injure people, which makes him a mental case. And by doing so, the mindset of the players willing to take him up on this changes, and they are far more likely to do something dirty to meet the incentive. Whether the hits meet some rulebook standard of legality shouldn't, and doesn't, matter. The fact you are unable to connect these dots is baffling to me.

The players do something dirty/illegal FINE AND SUSPEND THEM. If it's dirty and legal THEN CHANGE THE RULES.

Whether the hits meet some rulebook standard does matter. Either the hit was legal, ethical and clean then there's nothing to get excited about. If the hit is dirty and legal, then change the rules. That's why "whether meets some rulebook standard" does matter. If a dirty hit is legal, we need to know, and need to have the rules changed. Enforce clean football through the rules governing how football is played.

I do connect the dots. If rulebooks eliminate dirty hits as being legal, then functionally bounties don't matter. Things would be cleaned up through fines and suspensions.

"There is some moral/ethical relevance, but not functional". That's your distinction.

Here, and in the Braun thread, you have this odd habit of making everything black or white. It's either a broken law/rule, or not. Well, technically, you didn't break a rule, so it's ok! I mean, do you conduct your life in this manner? Do you commonly disregard ethics and morals in deference of shitty technicalities?

When it comes to evidence handling protocol, it has to be black or white to protect the integrity of the evidence and to especially protect the innocent from being wrongly convicted. It's essential to the process.

I don't disregard morals or ethics at all. If that's what you got out of my stance on the Braun thread, then you're not nearly as smart as you think you are. Protecting the innocent from possible wrongful conviction IS the moral/ethical stance to take.

And I already said I think the bounty's are unethical.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Everybody should care what hits are legal or illegal. If a hit is dirty and legal the rules should be changed to make the hit illegal.



The players do something dirty/illegal FINE AND SUSPEND THEM. If it's dirty and legal THEN CHANGE THE RULES.

Whether the hits meet some rulebook standard does matter. Either the hit was legal, ethical and clean then there's nothing to get excited about. If the hit is dirty and legal, then change the rules. That's why "whether meets some rulebook standard" does matter. If a dirty hit is legal, we need to know, and need to have the rules changed. Enforce clean football through the rules governing how football is played.

I do connect the dots. If rulebooks eliminate dirty hits as being legal, then functionally bounties don't matter. Things would be cleaned up through fines and suspensions.

"There is some moral/ethical relevance, but not functional". That's your distinction.




When it comes to evidence handling protocol, it has to be black or white to protect the integrity of the evidence and to especially protect the innocent from being wrongly convicted. It's essential to the process.

I don't disregard morals or ethics at all. If that's what you got out of my stance on the Braun thread, then you're not nearly as smart as you think you are. Protecting the innocent from possible wrongful conviction IS the moral/ethical stance to take.

And I already said I think the bounty's are unethical.

To the first bold, again, let me tell you why you are wrong.

Even if nobody committed an illegal hit while attempting to collect Willams' bounty, that does not mean that somebody won't at some point. It also does not mean that illegal hits or cheap shots (sorry, but people with a fucking brain can accept that cheap shots exist, even if said cheap shot falls under the category of a "clean" hit, and your assertion otherwise is like that of a petulant child who has yet to develop critical thinking skills) didn't occur that simply were not called.

To the second bold, I must ask, then why the fuck are you arguing about this? If it's unethical to offer a bounty, and it's against the rules to offer a bounty (and you are an admitted rules hugger under any and all circumstances, because golly gee, rules can never be wrong!), then why does it matter if the hits were clean or not? It doesn't!

 

[Chrispy]

:lol: @ trying to defend this

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

So bucky, if Williams offered cash to his players to kill the opposing QB, am I to assume that it would be a-ok, so long as the hit that accomplished the murder was a good, clean, and legal?

 

[Bear Pand]

If a hit is dirty but somehow still legal, then change the rules and make that hit illegal. Get rid of chop blocks. Get rid of any blocking at the knees for O-lineman. Protect the players health.

Yeah that's exactly what the league is trying to do, by punishing (I'm assuming they'll punish) the Saints for giving incentive to injure other players and deliberately damage their health. So what's your issue? That the hits were technically legal? There's no reason to make a rule that explicitly says don't go out and intentionally injure other players, and don't reward players for doing so...it's obvious.

I'm not a fan of all the new rules that make the game safer and overly protect positions like QB, but flagrant shit like this makes it all seem justified.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Yeah that's exactly what the league is trying to do, by punishing (I'm assuming they'll punish) the Saints for giving incentive to injure other players and deliberately damage their health. So what's your issue? That the hits were technically legal? There's no reason to make a rule that explicitly says don't go out and intentionally injure other players, and don't reward players for doing so...it's obvious.

I'm not a fan of all the new rules that make the game safer and overly protect positions like QB, but flagrant shit like this makes it all seem justified.

Welcome to dealing with bucky. Nothing can be obvious with this guy.

Anyway, any personal foul flag on the Saints defense the last three years has to come into question. bucky is acting like they've never been flagged.

 

[KNUBB]

Ya'll are acting like they are flagged all the time. Like the team is full of Ndamukong Suh's :yao:

Not saying I condone it at all, but the Saints aren't dirty(like they are the scariest D in the league amirite)

The punishment should be no harsher than spygate. I skimmed over most of this thread due to the incredible overreaction. I will say that there is no doubt in my mind that this isn't the only system in the league.

 

[Tailback U]

The Saints were tied for 8th most in the league in personal foul penalties over the last 3 years. So it's not like they were significantly ahead of everyone else in the NFL and can be labeled as a dirty team or whatever.

If you look at the stuff being said from players around the league, a lot of them don't think this is as big of a deal as some of you do.

Damien Woody said this isn't surprising, "bounty" programs are run everywhere.

Darren Sharper has said that ever since he came into the league he's been a part of pay for performance programs. He also said they were not paid to try and injure players, but obviously he could be lying.

Chris Harris, Shaun Phillips, Ryan Clark, and a few others have all said something about how the NFL is a contact sport and you sign up to get hit.

Like I said, it is a violent game, the other team is trying to hurt you. The other players you go up against are trying to hurt you. I don't know where you guys played football where you lined up against a guy who didn't try to knock you out with a blindside hit when he had the chance but that is what 99% of football players do and are expected to do.

Blind side hits are legal and encouraged and the majority of fans love them. Some would say they are cheap and dirty but they are a part of football and nobody has ever questioned them.

You can't play the sport of football at a high level and look out for the opponent's health. You don't want anybody to get seriously injured but knocking the piss out of someone and having them miss the rest of the game isn't going to keep any of these guys awake at night.

 

[Bear Pand]

Not looking out for opponents health is completely different than trying to go out and injure someone.

Hitting someone has hard as you can =/= going out with intent to injure.

 

[mgoblue2290]

How many personal fouls they had is irrelevant. Its the fact that they openly competed as a team for money to take opposing players out of the game. So when tackling someone maybe they went for a knee or made sure there was a little more helmet to helmet contact.

I don't disagree with these guys trying to beat the hell out of each other either. Like Tailback said, these guys want to inflict pain. It is a violent game and players are going to get taken out. The problem is they had a system in place rewarding the behavior and encouraging it. It doesn't matter whether or not they succeeded in taking guys out, they went into games actively trying to injure other players.

 

[KNUBB]

I swear none of you have seen the Saints defense play. It is evident in the overreaction

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

The Saints were tied for 8th most in the league in personal foul penalties over the last 3 years. So it's not like they were significantly ahead of everyone else in the NFL and can be labeled as a dirty team or whatever.

If you look at the stuff being said from players around the league, a lot of them don't think this is as big of a deal as some of you do.

Damien Woody said this isn't surprising, "bounty" programs are run everywhere.

Darren Sharper has said that ever since he came into the league he's been a part of pay for performance programs. He also said they were not paid to try and injure players, but obviously he could be lying.

Chris Harris, Shaun Phillips, Ryan Clark, and a few others have all said something about how the NFL is a contact sport and you sign up to get hit.

Like I said, it is a violent game, the other team is trying to hurt you. The other players you go up against are trying to hurt you. I don't know where you guys played football where you lined up against a guy who didn't try to knock you out with a blindside hit when he had the chance but that is what 99% of football players do and are expected to do.

Blind side hits are legal and encouraged and the majority of fans love them. Some would say they are cheap and dirty but they are a part of football and nobody has ever questioned them.

You can't play the sport of football at a high level and look out for the opponent's health. You don't want anybody to get seriously injured but knocking the piss out of someone and having them miss the rest of the game isn't going to keep any of these guys awake at night.

So because other ridiculously barbaric bounties exist, that makes it ok when one of them gets busted? Is that the argument you're making here? Are you saying you think it's ok to offer money for injuring players?

And why do you keep bringing up things like blind side hits and Chris Harris talking about football being a contact sport? Is this new information? Who cares? What does that have to do with bounties?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

How many personal fouls they had is irrelevant. Its the fact that they openly competed as a team for money to take opposing players out of the game. So when tackling someone maybe they went for a knee or made sure there was a little more helmet to helmet contact.

I don't disagree with these guys trying to beat the hell out of each other either. Like Tailback said, these guys want to inflict pain. It is a violent game and players are going to get taken out. The problem is they had a system in place rewarding the behavior and encouraging it. It doesn't matter whether or not they succeeded in taking guys out, they went into games actively trying to injure other players.

I have no idea why this is so hard for people to understand.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I swear none of you have seen the Saints defense play. It is evident in the overreaction

Knubb, this is not an overreaction. The fact that the Saints play bad defense does not get them off the hook. This is terrible PR for the league, street thug shit, and very unethical and disgusting behavior.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Not looking out for opponents health is completely different than trying to go out and injure someone.

Hitting someone has hard as you can =/= going out with intent to injure.

Tailback had coaches who apparently taught him to MURDER AND KILL on the field, so you have to excuse his inability to understand this.

 

[KNUBB]

Yo the Saints are the dirtiest team in the league

and

Yes this is an overreaction and it is personally hilarious to me.