Saints Defense maintained a Bounty Program

[leaffan]

The thing is you think these guys are going out there with the malicious intent of injury. Downplaying the system was in actuality performance based incentive. You can put someone out of the game without injuring them. Hit them til they don't want anymore. That is where we differ in opinions sir.

:rofl: :rofl:

If this was some other team you knubb would be on the other side of the fence haha.

 

[KNUBB]

I wouldn't actually. I have never been a fan of the rule changes to make a dangerous game "safe". That is where you guys have it twisted. I'm pretty consistent with my views. You just assume I'm in full homer mode and defending my team til the death. Shit if this was the Falcons(I loathe those guys) I wouldn't be up in arms about it.

 

[KNUBB]

The way I see it is if you don't want to be hit then go play some rec league flag football :kanye:

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Fuck whoever locked this thread btw. Now continue with the discussion.

In football knocking the shit out of someone until they don't wanna play anymore IS acceptable behavior. This isn't gymnastics or some shit. This is a game where people suit up like some kind of super soldier with the intent of using their body as a missile to knock another super soldier on his ass.

Again, you are failing to make the distinction between knocking someone out of the game, and being paid a bounty for knocking someone out of the game.

I can't make you guys understand the difference, but this has nothing to do with hard hitting or the physicality of the game.

And whoever closed the thread is a dipshit.

 

[KNUBB]

He got paid for that no doubt :yep:

 

[killgod]

The way I see it is if you don't want to be hit then go play some rec league flag football :kanye:

That's not what it's about.

-This undermines the NFL's goal of increasing player safety.
-This sends an awful message to it's fans, especially kids. We can all act like tough assholes like VSD loves to do, but in reality the NFL is a product that has various markets...including children.
-This is basically "under the table payments" which is against the Salary Cap rules.
-This contributes to players choosing to violate league rules to intentionally injure players. Who cares about the penalty, the team wants me to break his leg and I'm going to get personal rewards for doing so. Fuck the team, I want money. That's the message here and it's complete shit.


Lets make more stupid comments like "well the fines are bigger than these rewards so they don't matter anyways", then act all naive thinking the players are actually paying out of pocket for these fines. Yes, this bounty system has gone on actively for years with players LOSING MONEY and they continue to do that. Right, NFL players participating in a system that will cost them money...sounds like reality to me.

 

[Tailback U]

Why do you guys keep using the idea of football being hard hitting, to downplay bounties? Serious question.

They are mutally exclusive topics, that's where people like Tailback are failing so hard in this thread. Bucky is just burying his head in the sand and thinks fines will stop everything.

You need to improve your reading comprehension.

For the millionth time, I personally don't care about bounties because I understand that they make little difference to the players paying the game. It's not going to change the amount of effort on the field.

From a PR stand point, I totally understand where the NFL is coming from and I agree with it.

But if you think guys don't get excited about knocking out another guy then we just have to disagree. It is male nature to enjoy defeating another man physically. Since the beginning of time, men have fought each other and inflicted pain on each other in sport and combat because they enjoy it.

It's a very primitive attitude that's simply part of human nature. You can disagree or think differently, but there is a reason the Coloseum used have men fight each other to the death, the UFC gives incentives for knockouts, people stand and cheer during a hockey fight, Patrick Willis pounds his chest and stomps around after knocking another man out, etc.

Why was Mike Tyson so glorified and loved as the "baddest man on the planet"?

People love watching combat, especially males, whether you like to admit it or not. I realize this is kind of a separate discussion than the bounty programs, what I'm saying is getting rid of the bounty programs isn't going to make the sport less violent, even though I agree that it needs to be removed from the sport because women, children, and apparently you, can't handle the reality of the situation.

 

[bucky]

Because the league already does those things, you dolt, so obviously they dont work.

Raising fines, enforcing the rules more stringently and give suspensions more often? They are already doing that? How could they already give MORE fines, and be MORE strict with the rules, and give suspensions MORE often? How cam you already do MORE? Doesn't that go against the definition of MORE? Again, you don't even address the question.

You arent bringing anything new to the table or providing any sort of strong opinion or new insight. You continually post, yet add nothing.

This isn't Rocket Science. You seem to need things repeated.

Really, take your PMS meds.

 

[Fappin Raptor]

I'm glad I've got Greg Jennings on my team...

 

[Cornelius]

Bounties are irrelevant. We are going in circles.

Ethically, they are wrong. I don't disagree with you on that.

But whether or not they are in the game doesn't make a difference because players are still going to try to knock out opposing players.

I get that the NFL has to punish the Saints. They should be punished because they can't allow it. I get that.

My point is that whether they are in the game or not, it won't change anything and that's why I don't care about this and am not morally appalled like you.

Nail on the head.:thumbsup:

 

[Rip]

It is male nature to enjoy defeating another man physically. Since the beginning of time, men have fought each other and inflicted pain on each other in sport and combat because they enjoy it.

Why was Mike Tyson so glorified and loved as the "baddest man on the planet"?

People love watching combat, especially males, whether you like to admit it or not.

The difference is in a combat sport, you're trying to knock the other person out and that's the ultimate goal. Brett Favre wasn't trying to knock out the Saints defense. Brett Favre was doing his job and was getting molested at the knees, below the knees, after the play, and so forth.

Stop comparing the two. It is male nature to enjoy screwing multiple women, so therefor NFL players should just sex up their opponent's wives to have a psychological advantage since it is male nature to win at all costs.

 

[Tailback U]

The difference is in a combat sport, you're trying to knock the other person out and that's the ultimate goal. Brett Favre wasn't trying to knock out the Saints defense. Brett Favre was doing his job and was getting molested at the knees, below the knees, after the play, and so forth.

Stop comparing the two. It is male nature to enjoy screwing multiple women, so therefor NFL players should just sex up their opponent's wives to have a psychological advantage since it is male nature to win at all costs.

You're separating the QB from the other players which doesn't work in football. You can't go easy on one guy while going hard against another guy.

Rember when these guys started playing football at a young age they were all pretty much the same size and strength. They've been taught for years to go full speed every play and at everyone, now you want them to pick and choose who they are going to go full speed at and have them change technique on the fly?

The hits on Favre were legal at the time. No they aren't. It is the NFl's job to identify cheap, dirty hits, it's not the players jobs to do that.

 

[Rip]

You're separating the QB from the other players which doesn't work in football. You can't go easy on one guy while going hard against another guy.

Rember when these guys started playing football at a young age they were all pretty much the same size and strength. They've been taught for years to go full speed every play and at everyone, now you want th to pick and choose who they are going to go full speed at and have them change technique on the fly?

The hits on Favre were legal at the time. No they aren't. It is the NFl's job to identify cheap, dirty hits, it's not the players jobs to do that.

If you can'T differentiate "doing your job" and "trying to hurt someone" then you're missing the fundamental principle. You can do one without the other.

It's the idea that you could literally take them out of the game, injure them, ruin their career, anything. It's the idea that's what these guys are trying to do. It's not like "Oh, I'm just going to hurt something that won't last long." No. They don't care and that's horrible. They WANT that to happen. We need that ruthless behavior out of the NFL for the same reason we need faggots like Matt Cooke out of the NHL. Do you support Matt Cooke? I mean, it's man's nature to hurt another man and gain dignity, no?

 

[Rip]

Noticed you were a Raider fan. I take it you supported Jack Tatum and George Atkinson throwing hooks at people because "that's nature."

 

[Bear Pand]

Honestly I think Tailback just posts in threads to argue and prove how macho he is.

He's already stated multiple times in this thread that he's not ok with players being paid to injure and that's clearly one of the biggest issues at hand here. I doubt anyone really cares about bounties for making INTS and stuff like that, unless they're real serious about salary cap rules.

I do think it's pretty naive to argue that bounties don't make a difference. Again why would an NFL team put themselves at risk by instituting a bounty program that did not give players incentive to do anything. That'd be retarded.

 

[Tailback U]

If you can'T differentiate "doing your job" and "trying to hurt someone" then you're missing the fundamental principle. You can do one without the other.

It's the idea that you could literally take them out of the game, injure them, ruin their career, anything. It's the idea that's what these guys are trying to do. It's not like "Oh, I'm just going to hurt something that won't last long." No. They don't care and that's horrible.

You can't care, man. Your job is on the line every single play. You will get hurt if you go half speed vs. guys who are going full speed. Either you can go be the guy that blind sides someone or you can jog around the field with the attitude that you don't need to blind side someone as hard as you can because it's not necessary and then you are the guy that gets ear holed.

Noticed you were a Raider fan. I take it you supported Jack Tatum and George Atkinson throwing hooks at people because "that's nature."

There is a reason guys like Tatum, Lott, Atwater, Dawkins, John Lynch, Butkus, Singletary, Lewis etc. will be remembered forever and it wasn't just because they did their job. They were great football players, not just because they did their job, but because grown men feared them and did not want to play them. Fans loved them for physical, violent style of play.

I understand that the NFL has to crack down because 700 former players are now suing them for concussions and they are facing a ton of pressure form the media and general public because of it, but I'd be lying if I said I like today's NFL more than yesterday's and I think a lot of fans share my sentiments.

This was bound to happen, eventually. There was no way the NFL wasn't going to have to start penalizing, fining, and cracking down on hits because science is now showing that these guys are suffering severe consequences for it.

It is sad and it sucks and I fully support the changes but the game is declining in terms of defense. It's pretty much impossible to play defense now. Our generation will be able to look back and remember a time when football was downright scary to play. That's not necessarily a good thing, but it is something that we will remember and be able to look back upon because we experienced it and lived through it.

Honestly, with the way the NFL is going, I expect fans to lose interest. A lot of people think it's because of over saturation and exposure, I think it will be because they have to do everything they can to soften the sport and make it less physical.

When you do that, football becomes more like every other sport. The physical aspect of football is a huge reason why the NFL is so much more popular than the other major sports.

 

[Rip]

I still think you're forgetting the difference between "doing your job" and "trying to hurt someone."

Have you played hockey or do you still play hockey? THINK about hurting someone as opposed to doing your job and it's completely different. Your mindset, the way you play, the way you throw hits, everything. The same applies to football. It can still be borderline "legal", bu there's a difference.

I forgot what NFL player said it, but they said the NFL is a brotherhood, and it is. Most of these guys are friends outside of the place. Now imagine when someone purposely tries to HURT you. The idea of taking someone out of the job they love to the point it affects their regular life. There's a big hit and TRYING to hurt someone. Wrapping up or a big hit is just fine, but going after vulnerable spots or just trying to hurt someone in that manner is different from going full speed. It's the effort of trying to hurt someone as opposed to doing your job and the person gets hurt.

There's a big difference that I think you're missing.

 

[Tailback U]

Honestly I think Tailback just posts in threads to argue and prove how macho he is.

I don't need to prove how macho I am here, I do that in the fitness & nutrition section.

He's already stated multiple times in this thread that he's not ok with players being paid to injure and that's clearly one of the biggest issues at hand here. I doubt anyone really cares about bounties for making INTS and stuff like that, unless they're real serious about salary cap rules.

I do think it's pretty naive to argue that bounties don't make a difference. Again why would an NFL team put themselves at risk by instituting a bounty program that did not give players incentive to do anything. That'd be retarded.

It was part of the locker room culture. It got guys more motivated but they aren't retards, they weren't head hunting simply for the sake of injuring just because they were going to get $1000 or $1500 more.

You really can't prove that it motivates guys more to go out and injure other players.

Look at some of the teams who have knocked out more Quarterbacks than any other in the last few years; the Giants, Ravens, Steelers. Apparently, they did not have a bounty program in place yet they are knocking out more players than any other team, so how can you say that the bounty program encourages players to injure other players?

 

[Tailback U]

I still think you're forgetting the difference between "doing your job" and "trying to hurt someone."

Have you played hockey or do you still play hockey? THINK about hurting someone as opposed to doing your job and it's completely different. Your mindset, the way you play, the way you throw hits, everything. The same applies to football. It can still be borderline "legal", bu there's a difference.

Of course there is a difference between doing your job and trying to hurt someone, but they kind of go hand in hand in contact sports. It's contradictory to say, "go as hard as you and hit him as hard as you can but don't try to hurt him."

That doesn't work in real life, it sounds good theoretically, but it's impossible to do that in a game that is as fast as football where 22 guys are flying all over the field trying to level each other.

I forgot what NFL player said it, but they said the NFL is a brotherhood, and it is. Most of these guys are friends outside of the place. Now imagine when someone purposely tries to HURT you. The idea of taking someone out of the job they love to the point it affects their regular life. There's a big hit and TRYING to hurt someone. Wrapping up or a big hit is just fine, but going after vulnerable spots or hurt spots or just trying to hurt someone in that manner is different from going full speed. It's the effort of trying to hurt someone as opposed to doing your job and the person getting hurt. There's a big difference.

You're in denial if you think these guys actually care more about each other than themselves.

 

[Epidemik]

"Breaking down the potential legal fallout of Saints' bounty system"

The New Orleans Saints and their players, coaches and front office personnel are likely to receive harsh sanctions from NFL commissioner Roger Goodell for the dangerous bounty system they employed over the last few seasons. Lengthy suspensions, hefty fines and forfeiture of draft picks are all on the table. Their real worries, however, may come in court rooms, as the bounty system arguably broke the law. SI.com legal analyst Michael McCann breaks down the potential legal fallout.
Criminal Charges

The bounty system implicates at least two types of criminal charges: battery and conspiracy. Battery, which under Louisiana law is punishable by up to six months in jail, refers to the intentional use of force upon another person without that person's consent. Here, a Saints player who intentionally tried to injure another team's player could have battered that player. In response, a Saints player might argue that offensive players assume the risk of serious injury on every play, especially since defensive players are rewarded for stopping the advancement of the ball. That rationale would be deeply flawed, however, because while offensive players assume the risk of injury on a tackle, they do not assume the tackle is intended to injure them. The Saints' "pay for injury" model is clearly outside the boundaries of the game and an assumption of risk defense holds little weight.

KING: SAINTS FACING SEVERE PUNISHMENT

It is even possible that a Saints player could be charged with second degree battery. This is a more serious type of battery, which carries a potential five-year prison sentence and which refers to intentionally inflicting serious bodily injury. Under Louisiana law, "serious bodily injury" refers to causing another person extreme physical pain, unconsciousness, or risk of death. A bounty to injure someone so seriously that he's carted off the field arguably rises to second degree battery.

There is a three years statute of limitation for battery charges, which means that bounties -- which took place over the last three seasons -- occurred recently-enough for criminal prosecution.

BANKS: LOOMIS, PAYTON DESERVE MOST BLAME

It's not just Saints players who are susceptible to criminal charges. Former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, who admits to aiding and abetting the bounty system, could be charged as a conspirator. Under Louisiana law, criminal conspiracy is when two or more persons -- such as a defensive coordinator and his players -- agree to commit a crime (battery).

Head coach Sean Payton and general manager Mickey Loomis may have also committed crimes by failing to do anything about the bounty system. Louisiana law recognizes criminal negligence which refers to conduct that, while not intentional, shows a callous disregard for the safety of others. If Payton and Loomis were indeed aware of the bounty system and let it slide, they seem susceptible to criminal charges.

GALLERY: SPORTS SCANDALS THROUGH THE YEARS

While the above provides a road map to criminal prosecutions of Saints players, coaches and front office personnel, prosecutors seldom seek charges for incidents that occur on the field. This is true even for on-field incidents that would clearly be crimes if they occurred on a public street. Prosecutors and judges generally defer to leagues to enforce their own rules and assign their own penalties. While this deference makes sense on some levels, one may wonder whether an NFL penalty provides adequate deterrence for preventing future bounty systems: even the most serious NFL fine -- banishment from the game -- could never come close to the threat of a judge sentencing someone to jail or prison. Besides, in the rare instances when criminal charges are brought by authorities, they are often brought outside of the U.S. (such as when Vancouver authorities charged Boston Bruins defenseman Marty McSorley for his vicious slash of Vancouver Canucks forward Donald Brashear).
Personal Injury Claims

Players who were injured by the Saints' bounty system could file personal injury lawsuits against the Saints, Greg Williams, and the players who earned bounties. They are unlikely to do so, since NFL players seldom file personal injury claims for on-field injuries. Then again, a player injured because of bounty may feel differently than if he had been injured in the normal course of a game. With a bounty system, a player is targeted for injury. No player assumes such a risk. Plus, put yourself in the position of a player injured by a bounty: you suffered the injury not because of fair play but because a "hit man" tried to injure you. You and your family may seek legal redress for this unquestionable wrong.
Tax Evasion

Players who received bounty payments should have reported them as taxable income; even if the payments arose because of criminal activity, such "ill gotten gains" are taxable. Failure to pay one's full share of taxes constitutes tax evasion. The IRS and Louisiana Department of Revenue are likely following the bounty system scandal with a watchful eye.
Contract Termination For Cause

If the bounty scandal becomes a major story, Saints owner Tom Benson may deem it necessary to fire players, coaches and front personnel who participated in it. Those firings could be done "for cause", which would relieve the Saints of any remaining financial obligations on the contract. A for cause firing may be appropriate because the bounty system is arguably criminal and tortious and is clearly outside the scope of any employment contract. It has also caused the Saints franchise serious and potentially irreparable harm.
False Advertising

Fans who paid a good deal of money to attend Saints games, be they home or away, may reason that they were the victims of false advertising: they paid to watch competitive NFL football, not hired hit men who tried to injure other human beings. Louisiana has several laws for remedying false advertising and deceptive trade practices.

Michael McCann is a sports law professor and Sports Law Institute director at Vermont Law School and the distinguished visiting Hall of Fame Professor of Law at Mississippi College School of Law. He also serves as NBA TV's On-Air Legal Analyst. Follow him on Twitter.

http://cnnsi.com/2012/writers/michael_mccann/03/03/saints.bounty.system/index.html